Nova: How did Abraham Lincoln, facing a shattered nation, manage to inspire, persuade, and ultimately lead millions with his words? It’s a question that fascinates leaders, and our guest today, Frank, is no exception. What if I told you the secret to that level of influence wasn't just charisma, but a code hidden in our language—a code that a fascinating book, 'Words That Change Minds,' helps us crack? This isn't just history; it's a practical toolkit for modern leadership.

Frank: That’s a powerful opening, Nova. As someone in education, I’m constantly thinking about how to communicate effectively. The Lincoln connection is brilliant because he had to persuade people with deeply entrenched, opposing views. The idea that there's a systematic way to understand that is incredibly appealing.

Nova: Exactly! And that's what we're going to do. Today we'll dive deep into this from two powerful perspectives. First, we'll explore the 'motivational compass'—whether people move toward goals or away from problems. Then, we'll discuss the source of their motivation—whether it's an 'inner scorecard' or the need for external validation. Frank, as a leader in education, get ready to see your team in a whole new light.

Frank: I'm ready. This feels like it could be a game-changer, moving beyond just inspirational speeches to something much more targeted and, frankly, more respectful of individual differences.

Nova: I love how you put that, "respectful of individual differences." That's the perfect starting point. So let's jump into that first idea, the motivational compass. The book calls this the 'Toward/Away From' pattern. It’s about what gets you out of bed in the morning: the thrill of the chase or the fear of the fall?

Frank: A simple but profound distinction.

Nova: It really is. 'Toward' people are motivated by achieving goals. They see the prize, the vision, the sunny uplands. Their language is full of words like achieve, attain, get, have, include. 'Away From' people, on the other hand, are motivated by avoiding problems. They see the landmines, the risks, the things that could go wrong. Their language is about preventing, avoiding, eliminating, solving, or getting rid of things.

Frank: And neither is inherently better than the other, right? You need both on a team. You need the visionaries, but you also need the people who check the safety equipment.

Nova: Precisely. The book makes that very clear. The problem arises when a leader only speaks one language. There's a wild story in the book about a man a therapist was treating. This client had become a millionaire four separate times.

Frank: Four times? That’s… impressive and also a little concerning.

Nova: Right? So the therapist digs in. It turns out this man had an extreme 'Away From' pattern. He grew up poor and was terrified of poverty. That fear was an incredible motivator. He would work relentlessly, day and night, to get away from the threat of being poor. But what do you think happened the moment he became a millionaire and felt financially secure?

Frank: His motivation vanished. The threat was gone.

Nova: Exactly. The engine ran out of fuel. He'd stop working, his businesses would crumble, he'd lose his fortune, and then, once he was facing poverty again, the fear would kick back in and he'd start the whole cycle over. He was programmed to run a problem, not a goal like 'building sustainable wealth.'

Frank: Wow. That is a perfect, if tragic, illustration. It makes me think about student motivation in my field. We have students who are clearly 'Away From' failing. They'll do just enough work to get a C, to avoid the negative consequence. Their energy is all about damage control.

Nova: Yes! And how is that different from your 'Toward' students?

Frank: Oh, it's night and day. The 'Toward' students are motivated to an A, to mastery of the subject, to into a top graduate program. Their energy is expansive and creative. As a leader, or a teacher, you can't give those two students the same pep talk. For one, you might say, "Let's make sure you avoid falling behind on these key assignments." For the other, you'd say, "Here's the path to achieving distinction in this course."

Nova: That's the secret right there. You're tailoring the language. It’s not about changing them, it’s about meeting them where they are. Think about great leaders. The book mentions Nelson Mandela's inaugural address. He used powerful 'Away From' language: "freedom hunger, freedom deprivation, freedom suppression and freedom fear." He was identifying the problems his nation needed to escape to move toward a better future.

Frank: That's fascinating. He's using 'Away From' language to power a 'Toward' vision. It's a hybrid approach. It acknowledges the pain of the present to build momentum for the future. That’s a very sophisticated use of language. It’s what Lincoln did, too—he spoke of preventing the dissolution of the union, an 'Away From' idea, to achieve the goal of preserving it, a 'Toward' idea.

Nova: And that brings us to the second, equally crucial piece of the puzzle. It's not just motivates you, but tells you you've succeeded. The book calls this the 'Internal/External' source of motivation. Does your validation come from an inner scorecard, or from the applause of the crowd?

Frank: Ah, this is the core challenge of managing highly educated professionals. I see this every single day.

Nova: I bet you do! Let me paint a picture for you from the book. It's a story about Margaret Thatcher. She's at a Commonwealth meeting, and there's a vote on imposing sanctions against South Africa during Apartheid. Forty-nine countries vote in favor of the sanctions. Margaret Thatcher, representing the UK, is the lone dissenting vote. She votes against.

Frank: Standing completely alone. That takes a certain kind of conviction.

Nova: It does. And later, when a journalist asked her how it felt to be in a minority of one against forty-nine, she famously replied, "I feel sorry for the other forty-nine." That, right there, is a pure, off-the-charts 'Internal' pattern. Her measure of 'right' wasn't based on consensus or external opinion. It was based on her own internal standards. The scorecard was inside her head.

Frank: That is a stunning example. And it perfectly captures the mindset of many senior academics I work with. They are driven by their own internal standards of intellectual rigor and excellence. A simple "Hey, great job on that paper!" from me, their department head, can mean almost nothing.

Nova: Why is that?

Frank: Because I'm an external source. What matters to them is whether believe the work is good. The feedback they crave is a deep, critical engagement with their ideas from a respected peer, or the personal satisfaction of knowing they’ve solved a complex problem according to their own high bar. The external praise is just noise.

Nova: So how do you, as a leader, motivate that person? You can't just give them a gold star.

Frank: You can't. You give them autonomy. You trust them. You create an environment where they can pursue their own standards of excellence. You ask questions like, "Are you satisfied with how this project is developing?" or "Does this meet your standards for what we should be producing?" You're inviting them to consult their own internal scorecard.

Nova: And what about the opposite? The 'External' pattern? The book contrasts Thatcher with a story about Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. His government proposed a new Goods and Services Tax, the GST, at nine percent. The public went ballistic. There was a massive outcry. Mulroney, being highly 'External' and responsive to feedback, quickly intervened and lowered the tax to seven percent. He was reading the room.

Frank: And you need that too! You can't have a whole organization of 'Internals' who don't care what the outside world thinks. In education, we have 'External' staff members who thrive on positive feedback from students, praise from parents, or being recognized at a school-wide assembly. They need to hear, "The parents from the science fair were raving about your students' projects." That external validation is the fuel for their engine.

Nova: So as a leader, you're constantly code-switching. For one person, you're a quiet facilitator of their internal drive. For another, you're the town crier, celebrating their successes publicly.

Frank: Exactly. And a great leader, like Lincoln, has to be both. He had to have an unshakable 'Internal' belief in his core principles—the preservation of the Union, the moral question of slavery. But he was also a master 'External' politician, constantly taking the temperature of the public, listening to his generals, and adapting his strategy and his language based on that feedback. He held an internal compass but watched the external weather.

Nova: I love that metaphor. "An internal compass but watching the external weather." That really synthesizes these two ideas beautifully. So we have these two powerful lenses from "Words That Change Minds": the 'Toward/Away From' compass and the 'Internal/External' power source. It's like having a decoder ring for human behavior.

Frank: It is. And it shifts the burden of leadership. It’s not just about broadcasting your message and hoping it lands. It’s about tuning your receiver to their frequency first, and then crafting the message that will resonate. It’s a much more precise and empathetic way to lead.

Nova: So, Frank, and for everyone listening who wants to put this into practice, here's the experiment. For the next week, just listen. Don't try to influence or change anyone yet. Just be an anthropologist in your own organization. In your meetings, in one-on-ones, listen for these patterns.

Frank: Listen for the language. Are people talking about achieving goals or solving problems? That's your 'Toward' versus 'Away From' detector.

Nova: Exactly. And then listen for how they justify their decisions. Do they say, "I just know this is the right way to do it," or do they ask, "Well, what do the numbers say? What does everyone else think?"

Frank: That's your 'Internal' versus 'External' detector. That's the first step. Diagnosis before prescription. It's a small shift in listening that could fundamentally change how you lead, how you give feedback, and how you build a team where everyone feels truly seen and motivated. It’s a powerful idea.

Nova: A powerful idea for a powerful leader. Frank, thank you for helping us decode this today.

Frank: My pleasure, Nova. This was fascinating.