Jackson: The most dangerous thing you can do in your career right now isn't taking a risk. It's playing it safe. The people who follow all the rules, who never make waves—they're the ones who are actually in the most trouble. We're going to talk about why. Olivia: That’s such a provocative way to start, but it’s the absolute core of the book we’re diving into today. It's Seth Godin's Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us. And what’s fascinating is he wrote this back in 2008, right as platforms like Twitter were exploding. He saw that the internet was about to completely rewrite the rules of leadership, taking power away from institutions and giving it to… well, anyone. Jackson: So Godin is basically saying the traditional career ladder is just a trap? That the whole idea of "paying your dues" and "not rocking the boat" is a fast track to irrelevance? Olivia: A fast track to what he calls "sheepwalking." And that's the first big idea we have to unpack: the fundamental difference between management and true leadership.

Jackson: Okay, "sheepwalking." I have a feeling I know what that is, but break it down for me. What does Godin mean by that? Olivia: He means the outcome of hiring people who have been trained their whole lives to be obedient, giving them brain-dead jobs, and then using just enough fear to keep them in line. It's following the manual, even when the manual makes no sense. Jackson: It’s the "just doing my job" defense. Olivia: Exactly. And he tells this absolutely horrifying story that makes it crystal clear. A mother is going through airport security with a bottle of breast milk. The TSA screener, following the manual to the letter, doesn't know what to do. The rules don't explicitly cover this. So, he forces the mother to drink from the bottle to prove it's safe. Jackson: Oh, come on. That’s just… degrading and absurd. That can't be a real story. Olivia: It is. And for Godin, that’s the perfect, tragic example of a system without leadership. The screener wasn't a bad person; he was a sheepwalker. He was managing a process, not leading with judgment or humanity. He was so afraid of breaking a rule that he created a moment of profound failure. Jackson: Wow. Okay, that's a powerful and frankly disturbing example of a broken system. But what does the opposite look like? If that's a sheepwalker, what's a 'heretic' leader in Godin's world? Olivia: The opposite is someone who understands that the rules are secondary to the mission. And the best example he gives is a group you’d never expect to see in a business book: The Grateful Dead. Jackson: The band? With the tie-dye and the dancing bears? How are they leadership gurus? Olivia: Think about it. In the 70s and 80s, the music industry had strict rules. You sell records. You stop people from copying your music. Radio play is everything. The Grateful Dead broke every single one of those rules. Their leader, Jerry Garcia, made a revolutionary decision: he encouraged fans to bring tape recorders to their concerts and record the shows. Jackson: For free? The record label must have had a meltdown. Olivia: They did. But Garcia understood something deeper. He wasn't in the business of selling plastic discs; he was in the business of creating a community. By letting fans tape and trade shows, he turned them from passive consumers into active participants. He created a network. The tapes became a form of currency, a way for the tribe to communicate with itself. The Deadheads, as they became known, weren't just fans; they were a tribe, connected to each other, to the band, and to the idea of this shared, evolving musical experience. Jackson: So the leadership wasn't about command and control, it was about enabling connection. They gave the tribe the tools to talk to each other. Olivia: Precisely. And they ended up grossing over $100 million in their career, mostly from touring, despite having only one Top 40 hit. They proved that a small, intensely loyal tribe is infinitely more valuable than a massive, indifferent audience. Jackson: That's a great story for a rock band, but does this idea of being a 'heretic' leader really apply to a regular business? I mean, most of us aren't Jerry Garcia. Olivia: Absolutely. And Godin gives a perfect example: a software developer named Joel Spolsky. In the early 2000s, Joel wasn't a CEO. He was just a programmer who was frustrated with how software companies were managed. So he started a blog. He just started writing about his ideas—how to hire good programmers, how to create a better work environment. He even created something called the "Joel Test," a simple 12-point checklist to see how programmer-friendly a company was. Jackson: So he wasn't selling anything, just sharing his philosophy? Olivia: Exactly. He was just sharing his ideas, his manifesto. But his writing was so insightful and authentic that programmers all over the world started reading it. They started demanding better conditions from their employers. They formed a tribe around Joel's ideas. He became their leader, not because he had any formal authority, but because he gave them a new way to think about their work and a platform to connect. He changed an entire industry from his keyboard. That's the new leadership.

Olivia: And that's the perfect lead-in to Godin's second big idea, which is that you don't need to lead a massive tribe like the Deadheads. The real power is in the 'micromovement.' He argues it's about making your tribe tighter, not necessarily bigger. Jackson: Tighter, not bigger. That feels completely counter-intuitive. Everything in business and marketing is about scale, about reaching more people. Olivia: But Godin says that’s the old way of thinking. A tight tribe, one where members are deeply connected and communicate quickly, is far more powerful. He tells this wonderful little story about a restaurant in Brooklyn called 'Jack.' It was only open about twenty times a year, on Saturday nights. You had to see the menu online and book and pay in advance. Jackson: That sounds incredibly inconvenient. Why would anyone do that? Olivia: Because the scarcity and the shared experience made it special. It wasn't just dinner; it was an event. The owners, Danielle and Dave, weren't trying to appeal to everyone. They were creating a very specific, daring experience for a small group of people who "got it." Those people became the tribe. They told their friends. They felt like insiders. By deliberately making it small and exclusive, they made it tight and powerful. Jackson: But isn't that terrifying? To deliberately exclude people? And what about criticism? If you do something that 'remarkable,' as Godin calls it, won't people just tear you down? I think that's what stops most people from trying something new. Olivia: That’s the fear, right? And Godin says you have to run directly at it. He believes that if you're not getting criticized, you're probably not doing anything important. You're being boring. And being boring is the riskiest thing of all. He asks a simple question: "How can I create something that critics will criticize?" Jackson: He wants you to seek out criticism? That’s a tough pill to swallow. Olivia: It is, but it’s a mindset shift. It reframes criticism as a badge of honor, as proof that you’re on to something. And it doesn't have to be some grand, world-changing plan. He tells this hilarious story about a guy named Scott Beale at the SXSW conference. He was waiting in a ridiculously long line for the big, exclusive Google party. He got fed up. Jackson: I’ve been in that line. It’s a nightmare. Olivia: So Scott, instead of just complaining, takes initiative. He walks down the street, finds a nearly empty bar, and sends out a message on Twitter. He announces the "Official Alta Vista Party at Ginger Man." Jackson: Alta Vista? The search engine that died like a decade earlier? That’s hilarious. Olivia: It was a total joke! It was a heretical act. But within minutes, people started leaving the Google line and showing up. Soon, the bar was packed, with a line out the door. He created a movement in an instant. He saw a need, used a new tool, and wasn't afraid to be a little weird. He didn't ask for permission. He just led. That's a micromovement. It was small, temporary, and brilliant.

Jackson: So it seems the thread connecting all of this is faith. Faith in your idea, even if it’s a joke about Alta Vista. Faith that a tribe will find you, even if it’s a tiny restaurant. And faith to ignore the fear of criticism. Olivia: Exactly. And Godin argues this isn't just a business tactic; it's an obligation. He says the world is full of 'sheepwalkers' in brain-dead jobs, and the only way to create meaning is to find something you believe in and lead. He tells this very personal story about being on vacation in Jamaica. It's the middle of the night, and he's at a computer happily checking his work email. A couple walks by and says, "Isn't it sad you have a job you can't escape from?" Jackson: Wow. They thought they were pitying him. Olivia: Right. But Godin’s realization was the opposite. He felt pity for them. They had jobs they needed to escape from. He was lucky enough to have work he was passionate about, work that was a movement. For him, that passion is the vacation. Jackson: That’s a powerful reframe. So for someone listening right now who feels stuck in a 'sheepwalking' job, what's the one thing they can do tomorrow? What’s the first step? Olivia: Godin would say: don't ask for permission. Start something. It doesn't have to be a company. Start a newsletter for your team that highlights their successes. Start a lunch group to discuss new ideas. Propose a new, better process for a broken workflow. Initiate. He says the tools are there, the vacuum of leadership is there. The only thing missing is your choice to lead. Jackson: The choice. It all comes down to that. We'd love to hear about the tribes you're a part of or the ones you're building. Find us on our socials and share your story. It’s fascinating to see this in action. Olivia: It really is. The book is a call to action, and the most important part is simply deciding to answer it. This is Aibrary, signing off.