Olivia: A global survey found that only 15% of employees are actually engaged at work. Jackson: Fifteen percent? That's... shockingly low. What are the other 85% doing? Just staring at a spreadsheet, dreaming of being anywhere else? Olivia: Pretty much. They’re just showing up. And it begs the question: what if the problem isn't the people, but the rigid, outdated system we force them into? The place and the time. Jackson: The 9-to-5 cage. I feel that in my bones. It feels like we’re running on an operating system from the 1950s, but with 21st-century demands. Olivia: That is the perfect analogy. And it’s exactly what Gemma Dale, a veteran HR professional and university lecturer, tackles in her award-winning book, Flexible Working. What's fascinating is that she wrote it in late 2020, right on the cusp of the pandemic, which makes it incredibly prescient. This isn't just a reaction to COVID; it's a blueprint that was already arguing for this revolution. Jackson: So she saw the tidal wave coming before it even hit the shore. I'm intrigued. Where do we even start to dismantle this system that feels so... permanent?

Olivia: We start with the most universally miserable experience of modern work life: the daily commute. Dale opens with this incredibly relatable story that I think everyone listening has lived through. It's 7 AM. The alarm goes off. You rush, you get dressed, you join this mass migration of humanity, all heading to the same place at the same time. Jackson: Oh, I know this story. It’s a horror story. You're packed into a train like a sardine, or you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic, paying a fortune for the privilege of being stressed before your day has even begun. You’re answering emails on your phone in a crowded bus just to get a head start. Olivia: Exactly. And you arrive at the office already tired, drained, and poorer. Dale’s question is simple but profound: Is this really the most sensible way to work in the 21st century? Jackson: The answer is obviously no! But it feels so ingrained. Where did this whole 9-to-5 prison even come from? It feels like it’s been around forever. Olivia: That’s the myth. It hasn't. It's a historical relic. Dale traces it back to the Industrial Revolution. The 9-to-5, Monday-to-Friday, all-in-one-location model was designed for factories. It was created to supervise manual laborers operating heavy machinery that couldn't be taken home. Jackson: Okay, that makes so much sense. We needed to be there to pull the levers and work the assembly line. But I’m a writer. My main tool is a laptop. The only lever I’m pulling is on my espresso machine. Olivia: And that’s the core of the absurdity. We’re knowledge workers, but we're still operating under a factory model. The book argues that technology has made the physical office, for many of us, completely redundant. Yet we cling to it. This leads to what she calls 'presenteeism'. Jackson: Presenteeism. I love that. It’s the art of looking busy. It’s making sure your jacket is on the back of your chair so the boss thinks you’re still there, even when you’ve just gone for a 45-minute coffee run. Olivia: It’s exactly that. It’s valuing face-time over output. It’s a culture built on the assumption that if a manager can't see you, you must not be working. This is rooted in a fundamental lack of trust. Jackson: But isn't there an argument that having everyone in the same place at the same time creates a level playing field? You know, shared experience, spontaneous collaboration at the water cooler, all that stuff companies love to talk about. Olivia: The book tackles that head-on. While there's a place for in-person connection, the idea that innovation only happens in scheduled meetings or accidental hallway chats is another myth. The cost of that "spontaneous collaboration" is immense: hours of wasted commute time, environmental damage from millions of cars, and the exclusion of huge pools of talent who can't conform to that rigid schedule. Jackson: Whoa, when you put it like that, the water cooler chat seems a lot less valuable. You’re talking about people with disabilities, or caring responsibilities, or who just can't afford to live in the hyper-expensive cities where the offices are. Olivia: Precisely. The 9-to-5 model isn't a level playing field; it's a system that actively filters out a massive amount of talent. It was designed for a world that no longer exists, for a type of work that most of us no longer do. It’s a dinosaur we keep feeding because we’re afraid to imagine a world without it. Jackson: Okay, I'm sold. The 9-to-5 is a dinosaur. It’s broken, it’s inefficient, and it’s making us miserable. But convincing the people with the money—the CFOs, the CEOs—that’s a whole other battle. How do you prove that letting people work from their couch in their pajamas is actually good for business?

Olivia: This is where the book gets really powerful, because it moves from the philosophical to the practical, armed with a mountain of data. The core argument is that flexibility isn't a fluffy perk; it's a cold, hard, strategic advantage. Jackson: I'm listening. Talk numbers to me. Olivia: Okay. One study she cites from the International Workplace Group found that 85% of businesses said they were more productive as a result of offering flexible working. Another found that companies with high adoption rates of flexibility reported a 20% increase in employee productivity and a 15% reduction in employee turnover. Jackson: A 15% reduction in turnover? That alone would save a company a fortune in recruitment and training costs. Olivia: A huge fortune. And it’s not just about saving money. It's about making money. The book highlights how flexibility is a massive talent magnet. One Timewise study found that while 87% of people want to work flexibly, only 15% of jobs are advertised that way. If you’re one of that 15%, you have your pick of the best talent on the market. Jackson: That’s a massive competitive advantage. You’re fishing in a giant, untapped ocean of talent while everyone else is crowded around the same small pond. Olivia: Exactly. And the case study that brings this all to life is from Zurich Insurance. This isn't some nimble tech startup; it's a 140-year-old global insurance giant with 55,000 employees. Jackson: Right, a company you'd expect to be the definition of traditional and slow-moving. Olivia: You'd think so. But they made a radical decision. They started advertising every single vacancy as being potentially part-time, job-share, or full-time with flexible hours. They put the power in the hands of the applicant. Jackson: That’s a bold move. What happened? Olivia: The results were staggering. They saw a nearly 20% increase in applications from women for senior management roles. They were suddenly attracting a whole new demographic of highly experienced leaders who had previously been shut out of the market because they couldn't commit to a rigid 9-to-5 schedule. Jackson: Wow. So this isn't just for tech bros in hoodies. A massive, traditional corporation did this and saw a direct, measurable benefit to their talent pipeline and diversity. That’s a game-changer. Olivia: It completely reframes the conversation. It proves that flexibility is a tool for performance. But there's a catch, and the book is very clear about this. You can't just slap a "flexible work" label on your careers page and call it a day. Jackson: What's the catch? Olivia: You have to build the entire culture around it. Dale outlines six key elements of a truly flexible workplace, and the most important ones are "high trust" and "enabling and supportive managers." You have to train your leaders to manage based on results, not on whether they can see someone at their desk. You have to trust your people to do their jobs. Jackson: So it’s a fundamental shift in the psychological contract between the employer and the employee. It’s moving from a parent-child relationship of supervision to an adult-adult relationship of trust and autonomy. Olivia: That's a perfect way to put it. It’s about treating employees like grown-ups. And that shift doesn't just impact the bottom line. It has a profound effect on the human beings doing the work. Jackson: Which feels like the most important part. The numbers are great, but if we’re still miserable, what’s the point? Olivia: Exactly. And that culture shift isn't just about profits. It's about creating a more humane and inclusive world.

Jackson: Let's talk about that. Because for every success story like Zurich, I've heard horror stories. People who go part-time and suddenly their career is dead in the water. They get sidelined, overlooked for promotions. It’s like they’re put in a "mommy track" penalty box. Olivia: You've just hit on one of the most critical and dangerous aspects of getting this wrong: what the book calls "flexibility stigma." There's this pervasive, often unconscious bias that if you work flexibly, you must be less committed, less ambitious. Jackson: The perception is that you're not a "serious" employee anymore. Olivia: Precisely. And the book quotes the Women and Equalities Committee, which referred to part-time working as "career death" for many women. This is a huge contributor to the gender pay gap. Women are more likely to take on part-time or flexible roles to manage childcare, and as a result, their pay and progression stagnate. Jackson: So, poorly implemented flexibility can actually make inequality worse. It just reinforces the old gender roles where the woman takes a step back for the family. Olivia: It absolutely can. But this is where the book offers a really hopeful and powerful counter-narrative. It argues that true, widespread flexibility is one of the most powerful tools we have to dismantle those gender roles. And the key is getting men on board. Jackson: How so? Olivia: Dale cites a really eye-opening Deloitte survey of millennial fathers. It found that one-third of them had already left a job for one with more flexibility, and another third were actively looking to do the same. These men are desperate to be more involved parents. Jackson: But they face their own stigma, right? The "provider" stereotype. A guy asks to leave early for a school play, and he gets side-eyed by his colleagues. Olivia: Exactly. They feel immense guilt—guilt with their managers, their partners, their kids. But the book's point is profound: when it becomes just as normal for a father to request a flexible schedule as it is for a mother, the stigma starts to evaporate for everyone. It stops being a "women's issue" or a "parent's issue" and becomes a "human issue." Jackson: That’s a huge mental shift. It reframes flexibility from being a special accommodation for a few to being the default way of working for everyone. And that must have ripple effects beyond just parents. Olivia: Massive ones. The book dedicates a lot of time to this. Think about carers for elderly parents—a growing demographic. A survey by Carers UK found that 600 people give up their jobs every day to provide care. Flexibility could keep those skilled, experienced people in the workforce. Jackson: And people with disabilities, for whom the daily commute might be a significant physical or mental barrier. Or older workers who don't want to fully retire but would love to phase down their hours. Olivia: Yes, to all of the above. It opens up the workforce to everyone who has been systematically excluded by the rigid, one-size-fits-all factory model. It’s a matter of social justice. It’s about recognizing that talent comes in all forms and life circumstances, and creating a system that allows that talent to flourish. Jackson: It really feels like we're at a tipping point. The old model is cracking under the strain of its own inefficiency and inhumanity. The evidence for a new way is overwhelming.

Olivia: It is. The book makes an undeniable case that flexible working is no longer a "nice to have." It's a business, social, and personal necessity. The evidence is there. The benefits are clear. The only thing holding us back is our own resistance to change. Jackson: So it's not about working less, it's about working smarter and more humanely. The 9-to-5 was designed for interchangeable cogs in a machine, and we're not cogs. We're people with complex lives, and a system that acknowledges that humanity is a system that will ultimately win. Olivia: Exactly. And the book’s final point is that this is a journey, not a destination. It requires a deep cultural shift built on trust. There's a wonderful quote from Ernest Hemingway that Dale includes, which I think sums it all up: "The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them." Jackson: Wow. That’s so simple but so powerful. You have to take the leap. Olivia: You have to take the leap. And maybe the first step for anyone listening isn't to demand a four-day work week tomorrow. Maybe it's just to start a conversation with your team or your manager. To ask: what is one small thing we could do this month to make our work just a little more flexible, a little more human? Jackson: That feels achievable. A small step towards a bigger revolution. I'm curious to know what our listeners think. What are your experiences with flexible work? Have you seen it done brilliantly, or have you been a victim of the "flexibility stigma"? Let us know on our social channels. We’d love to hear your stories. Olivia: It’s a conversation we all need to be having. Jackson: This is Aibrary, signing off.