Michelle: Everything you've been taught about reading people is wrong. You've been told to look them in the eye, to watch their face for the truth. But what if the most honest part of a person is the one you almost never look at: their feet? Mark: Whoa, hold on. Their feet? Not their shifty eyes or a nervous smile? You’re telling me the key to understanding someone is in their shoes? That sounds like something out of a spy movie. Michelle: It’s less spy movie and more FBI field manual. That's the revolutionary idea at the heart of What Every Body Is Saying by Joe Navarro, with Marvin Karlins. Mark: And this isn't just some pop-psych guru. I looked him up. Navarro was an FBI counterintelligence agent for 25 years. He used this stuff to catch spies, which gives it a whole different level of credibility. Michelle: Exactly. He wasn't just theorizing in a lab; he was in high-stakes interrogations where reading a single, subtle cue could mean the difference between catching a traitor or letting them walk. His entire approach is built on a simple but profound truth about how our brains are wired. Mark: Okay, I'm intrigued. So where do we start? Do we just start staring at everyone's feet in the office? I feel like that might get me a call from HR. Michelle: (Laughs) We'll get to the feet, I promise. But first, we have to understand why they're so honest. And to do that, we need to take a quick trip inside our own heads, to a part of our brain that hasn't changed much since we were living in caves.

Mark: You mean the part of my brain that still wants to eat the entire pizza instead of just one slice? Michelle: Pretty much. Navarro breaks the brain down into three parts, but for our purposes, we only need to know about two: the neocortex, or the 'thinking brain,' and the limbic system, which he calls the 'honest brain.' Mark: The 'honest brain.' I like the sound of that. What makes it so honest? Michelle: Because it’s our survival brain. It’s the part that’s been with us for millions of years, and its only job is to react to the world in real-time to keep us safe. It doesn't think, it doesn't rationalize, it just reacts. It’s responsible for our emotions and our instant, gut responses. The neocortex, on the other hand, is the new kid on the block. It’s where we reason, create, and, most importantly, where we lie. It’s the brain’s PR department. Mark: Ah, so the neocortex is crafting the perfect, polite email, while the limbic brain is screaming, "I don't want to go to this meeting!" Michelle: Precisely. And the limbic brain’s reactions are so powerful they manifest physically in our bodies before our thinking brain can stop them. Navarro boils its primary responses down to three famous F’s: Freeze, Flight, and Fight. Mark: Right, the classic survival modes. Michelle: And the 'freeze' response is the most ancient. Think of a deer in the headlights. When our ancestors sensed a predator, the first thing they did was freeze. It makes you harder to spot and gives your brain a split second to assess the threat. Navarro tells this simple but perfect story about it. He was at his mom’s house late one night with family, just relaxing, eating ice cream. Mark: Sounds nice and calm. Michelle: It was, until the doorbell rang unexpectedly, very late. And in that instant, he said it was like a switch was flipped. Every single person in that room—adults, kids—froze mid-motion. Spoons halfway to mouths, hands paused in the air. It was a synchronized, completely involuntary reaction to a potential threat. Mark: Wow, that's a powerful image. And it was just his sister who forgot her keys, right? Michelle: Exactly. The threat wasn't real, but the limbic response was. It’s hardwired. And that freeze response is the first major clue we can observe. When someone suddenly goes still or restricts their movements during a conversation, their honest brain is screaming, "Danger!" Mark: Okay, but what happens after we freeze? We can't just stay still forever. Michelle: Right. If the brain decides the threat is real and can't be avoided, it triggers the 'flight' or 'fight' response. But even if the threat passes, the stress it created has to go somewhere. And this is where we get to one of Navarro's most useful concepts: pacifying behaviors. Mark: Pacifying behaviors. What does that mean? Like, giving your brain a pacifier? Michelle: It’s not far off! These are the little things we do subconsciously to calm ourselves down after a stressful experience. It's the limbic brain telling the body, "Okay, crisis averted, let's soothe ourselves." It can be anything from rubbing your forehead, to playing with your hair, to touching your neck. Mark: I definitely rub the back of my neck when I'm stressed. I never even thought about why. Michelle: Navarro says neck-touching is one of the most common and reliable pacifiers. The neck is full of nerve endings, and touching it lowers your heart rate and blood pressure. He tells this chilling story from his FBI days about trying to find a dangerous fugitive. They suspected he was hiding at his mother's house. Mark: And I'm guessing the mother wasn't exactly cooperative. Michelle: She was calm, collected, and denied everything. She said she hadn't seen her son. But the investigators noticed something. Every time they asked a direct question about her son—"Is he in the house right now?" or "Could he have gotten in while you were at work?"—her hand would drift up and she would touch the little dimple at the base of her throat, the suprasternal notch. Mark: Just that one little movement. Michelle: Just that one little movement. It was a pacifying behavior. Her neocortex was saying, "No, he's not here," but her limbic brain was so stressed by the lie that it was desperately trying to soothe itself. That single, repeated gesture told them she was deeply uncomfortable with that specific topic. Mark: So what did they do? Michelle: Based on that nonverbal cue, they got a warrant, searched the house, and found the fugitive hiding in a closet. Her 'honest brain' gave her away completely. Mark: That is incredible. It’s like our bodies have a built-in truth serum. But it also feels like this could be easily misinterpreted. Maybe she was just nervous talking to the FBI in general. Michelle: That's the key point Navarro makes, and it's why his book is more credible than a lot of pop-psych stuff out there. He says you can never rely on a single behavior. You have to look for clusters of behaviors and, most importantly, a change from a person's baseline. The mother was calm when talking about the weather, but the neck-touching only appeared when they talked about her son. That's the tell. It's the change that matters.

Mark: Okay, so our brain is constantly broadcasting these signals of comfort or discomfort, and we can spot them through things like freezing up or pacifying behaviors. But you said at the start the real secrets are in the feet. How on earth does that work? Michelle: This is my favorite part of the book because it’s so counter-intuitive. Navarro argues that the farther a body part is from the brain, the less we're able to consciously control it, and therefore, the more honest it is. And you can't get much farther from the brain than the feet. Mark: That actually makes a weird kind of sense. I might be carefully controlling my facial expression, but I have no idea what my feet are doing under the table. Michelle: Nobody does! Our feet and legs are evolutionarily programmed for one primary purpose: survival. They're what we use for the 'flight' part of 'freeze, flight, or fight.' They want to carry us away from danger and towards things we like. So, their orientation is often a dead giveaway of our true intentions. Mark: So if I'm on a date and their feet are pointed towards the door... that's not a good sign? Michelle: (Laughs) It’s a classic sign of someone who wants to leave! Conversely, when we're engaged and happy, we often exhibit what Navarro calls "happy feet"—bouncing, wiggling, or tapping. It's a gravity-defying behavior that signals genuine joy. But the real power comes from observing a sudden change in foot behavior. Mark: Like in an interrogation? Michelle: Exactly. He tells this amazing story about a case he calls "Forget Bonnie, Find Clyde." They were interviewing a woman who they thought was just a witness in a serious crime. The interview was going nowhere. She was answering questions, but her body language was neutral, except for one thing: she was constantly jiggling her foot. Mark: Just nervous energy, probably. Michelle: That's what they thought. It was her baseline. But then, the interviewer casually asked, "Do you know Clyde?" And in that instant, her foot went from a simple jiggle to a full-blown, aggressive up-and-down kicking motion. Her face didn't change, she didn't say a word, but her leg started kicking like it was trying to run a marathon. Mark: Wow. Just from hearing a name. Michelle: Her limbic brain heard "Clyde" and immediately registered it as a massive threat. The 'flight' response was so strong it came out in her foot. That single leg-kick told them everything. They pressed her on her connection to Clyde, and she eventually confessed that he had involved her in a major crime. She ended up getting a long prison sentence, all because her foot couldn't keep a secret. Mark: That's a detective-level insight. It makes you want to watch old crime movies and just stare at the suspect's feet the whole time. But what about the rest of the body? What about the torso? Michelle: The torso is all about protection. Our ventral side—our front—is where all our vital organs are. We instinctively protect it when we feel threatened or uncomfortable. Navarro calls it 'ventral denial.' We turn away from things we don't like. Mark: Like when you're stuck talking to someone boring at a party and you angle your body towards the exit. Michelle: That's a perfect example of ventral denial. And when we can't physically turn away, we shield. We'll cross our arms, hold a drink in front of our chest, or even grab a pillow. He has this great story he calls "Pillow Talk." The FBI was interviewing a young man suspected of being involved in a major crime. For the entire three-hour interview, whenever the topic turned to his potential involvement, he would grab a couch pillow and hug it tightly to his chest. Mark: A literal shield. Michelle: A literal shield. When they talked about neutral topics, he'd put it aside. But as soon as the heat was on, he needed that barrier. It was a massive indicator of his discomfort and guilt. It's the same reason we feel more comfortable with our arms uncrossed and our jackets unbuttoned when we're with friends. We're showing 'ventral fronting'—we're open and not threatened. Mark: This is fascinating because it reframes body language. It's not about a secret code where 'crossed arms means you're lying.' It's about a spectrum of comfort and discomfort, of openness and defensiveness, that's constantly being broadcast by our bodies. Michelle: You've nailed it. It's a much more nuanced and, frankly, more useful way to think about it. It moves away from the simplistic, often inaccurate, myths about lie detection that you see on TV.

Mark: So, when you put it all together, the big takeaway isn't about becoming a human lie detector. It's more about becoming a better observer of emotional truth. You're not looking for lies; you're looking for the presence of comfort or, more tellingly, the sudden arrival of discomfort. Michelle: That is the absolute core of it. The real power of this knowledge isn't in catching people in lies, though it can be used for that. The real power is in enhancing empathy and building stronger connections. When you're in a meeting and you notice a colleague subtly touch their neck after you propose an idea, you don't have to think, "They're lying!" You can think, "They're uncomfortable with that. I wonder why." It gives you an opportunity to ask a better question, to clarify, or to simply show that you're paying attention to them as a person. Mark: It's a tool for understanding, not just for interrogation. Michelle: Exactly. Navarro ends the book with a beautiful little story that I think sums it all up. A friend of his was driving to a new city, Coral Gables in Florida, and she got completely lost. She was driving around for ages, getting more and more frustrated because she couldn't find a single street sign. Mark: I know that feeling. It's infuriating. Michelle: Finally, in desperation, she pulls into a gas station and asks for help. The attendant just smiles and says, "Ma'am, in Coral Gables, the street signs aren't on poles. They're small stone blocks on the ground at the corners of the intersections." She went back out, and suddenly, they were everywhere. They were obvious. She just hadn't known where to look. Mark: That’s a great analogy. The nonverbal cues are the stone blocks on the ground. They've been there the whole time. Michelle: They've been there the whole time. We've just been trained to look up at the face, at the words, when the real directions are often somewhere else entirely. Learning to read what every body is saying is just learning where to look. It's about seeing the conversation that's happening beneath the conversation. Mark: It makes you wonder what signals you're broadcasting without even realizing it. My foot is probably telling you I need more coffee right now. Michelle: (Laughs) It just might be. So I guess the question for all of us is, what are our bodies saying when we're not paying attention? And what crucial, honest messages are we missing from the people around us every single day? Mark: That's a deep thought to end on. If you've ever noticed a weird body language 'tell' in yourself or someone else, we'd love to hear about it. Share your stories with us on our social channels. Michelle: This is Aibrary, signing off.