Alex: You know that amazing feeling when you bite into a perfectly ripe tomato? Sweet, tangy, just… full of flavor. Now, compare that to the supermarket tomatoes we usually get. Bland, watery, honestly kind of a letdown, right? Ever wonder why there's such a difference? Michelle: Is this some kind of tomato mafia situation? Or did farmers just decide taste wasn't a priority anymore? Alex: Well, it’s actually a much bigger issue than just tomatoes. Today, we're diving into The Dorito Effect by Mark Schatzker. It's a really interesting look at how our food has lost its natural flavor and nutritional value. And, get this, artificial flavors play a pretty significant role in making us hungrier, less healthy, and ultimately, less satisfied with what we eat. Michelle: Aha, so artificial flavors are the bad guys? Are we talking about some secret food scientist society plotting world domination with Dorito dust? Alex: Not exactly a secret society, but the book does a great job of explaining how industrial agriculture has focused on things like higher yields instead of things like taste. That's made our fruits, vegetables, even our meats less nutritious and, well, less flavorful. Simultaneously, these synthetic flavors have transformed processed snacks into these super appealing treats while also tricking our brains to eat more than we probably should. Michelle: So, on one side, we’ve got tasteless broccoli, and on the other, super-charged strawberry candy. Guess which one we're all reaching for? Alex: Exactly! In this episode, we'll explore a few key ideas from the book. We will talk about how industrial farming has impacted the quality of our food; we'll explore the science behind why these artificial flavors are so addictive. And, here’s the good part, we will talk about how getting back to natural, flavorful food might just be the solution to improving our diets and our overall health. Michelle: So, a comeback for actual flavor, huh? Sounds almost too good to be true. I definitely have questions (and maybe a few doubts), but let's jump in. Alex: Perfect! Let's break down how things went sideways and how we can get back to enjoying food that actually tastes good and is good for us.

Alex: So, Michelle, last time we were talking about how our food seems to have lost its taste and health benefits. Where should we pick up from there? Michelle: Yeah, that disappearing act of flavor and nutrition is a real head-scratcher. Alex, what's the underlying cause of this “flavor-nutrition disconnect”? Alex: Well, the root of it is that modern agriculture has really prioritized things like how much you can grow, how long it lasts on the shelf, and what it looks like, all over how it tastes and how nutritious it is. And the result? A lot of the fruits, vegetables, even the meats we eat today just aren't what they used to be in terms of flavor and nutrients. Michelle: Right, those priorities. We get these enormous tomatoes that look like they belong in a sci-fi movie, but they’ve got the flavor of cardboard. Alex: Exactly! And tomatoes are a great example. They used to be famous for their amazing taste, and people cultivated all these different heirloom varieties specifically because they tasted so good. But then industrial farming came along and was like, "Forget about the flavor; we need something that can sit on a shelf for weeks, is huge, and can resist diseases!" Michelle: Yeah, because nothing screams "delicious" like a tomato that’s built to survive a nuclear apocalypse. Alex: Well, a plant breeder and researcher named Harry Klee actually dug into this, and he figured out what happened. He discovered that modern tomatoes have lost what are called secondary compounds. These are the chemicals that give them their complex aroma, taste, and even some of their nutritional value. Michelle: So the flavor isn’t just some fancy extra; it’s actually tied to the health benefits of the tomato itself? Alex: Exactly! Klee found out that these flavor compounds are intrinsically linked with nutrition. Tomatoes that taste better, that have a richer, more complex flavor, usually have higher levels of vitamins and nutrients. So when we breed for durability instead of flavor, we’re basically shooting ourselves in the foot in terms of both taste and health. Michelle: So, if I’m following, the flavorless tomatoes we see in most supermarkets are what we're stuck with, while these super-flavorful, nutrient-packed tomatoes are locked away in Klee’s lab somewhere? Alex: Not entirely. Klee actually developed a hybrid variety called the Garden Gem—it's flavorful “and” it's resilient. But the thing is, the agricultural industry is still focused on high yield and visual appeal. Flavor just doesn't seem to be a priority for them. Michelle: Right, because profits are tied to how much they can grow and ship, not whether the customer actually enjoys eating their product. Alex: Unfortunately, that’s true, yeah. But it's not just tomatoes. Let's talk about chicken. Michelle: Ah, yes, the great chicken saga. I'm guessing chickens didn't always taste like…disappointment and rubber? Alex: Not at all. Back in the day, chickens roamed around freely, eating all sorts of natural stuff—grass, seeds, insects. This gave their meat a “really” rich, savory flavor. But now, industrialized farming is all about producing bigger, faster-growing chickens. Michelle: You mentioned the chicken being "essentially a blank slate." Shout out to Julia Child for that one. Alex: She said it best, didn’t she? Modern chickens are fed these monotonous, high-calorie diets just for efficiency. And what happens? You get bland meat. And even worse, the nutritional content is just a shadow of what it used to be. Michelle: Like fast-forwarding evolution – but instead of getting super-flavorful chickens, we get these oversized birds that taste like soggy sponges. Alex: That’s not far from the truth. This shift in chicken farming kind of sums up the bigger problem with modern agriculture: it’s a trade-off between yield and quality. Chickens, tomatoes—it doesn't matter. When you're aiming for quantity, flavor and nutrition “really” suffer. Michelle: And speaking of trade-offs, I think you mentioned something earlier about the "dilution effect"? Some kind of vegetable mystery? Alex: Oh, right, absolutely. Let’s talk about that. The dilution effect is a term that Donald Davis came up with to describe what happens when crops are bred for productivity. Basically, when you push plants to grow larger or faster, the nutrients get spread out more thinly across the whole plant. Michelle: So, a massive bundle of kale from the 2020s is just a visual trick – barely half as nutritious as its counterpart from, say, the 1950s? Alex: Exactly! Davis found that kale from the 1950s had double the riboflavin of modern kale. Vegetables today might be bigger, but they're often more full of water and less flavorful and nutritious as a result. Michelle: And then – surprise – that’s where the processed food industry swoops in with all its enhancements and synthetic flavors. Alex: Exactly! If fresh food doesn’t taste like much, it makes sense that people would reach for snacks and meals that are packed with artificial flavors designed to taste "better" than real food. It's a vicious cycle. Michelle: So people aren’t just fighting off junk food cravings, they’re also up against this bland food landscape that just leaves them feeling unsatisfied. Alex: That’s the sad part. It’s a systemic issue; it's not just about individual choice. And it’s a big reason why things like obesity and nutrition-related diseases are so common these days. In some ways, the food system sets us up to fail. Michelle: Well, clearly this isn’t a sustainable path. So, I’m assuming there’s at least some hope beyond Klee’s tomato revolution? What are some actual solutions? Alex: Well, people like Harry Klee are showing that it's possible to have both flavor and nutrition in crops. And in Europe, you've got movements like Label Rouge, which makes sure that poultry is higher quality. The basic idea is to go back to a system where quality – not just quantity – drives food production. Michelle: I don’t want to sound cynical, but how do you actually convince a global industry to put enjoyment and health above profits? Alex: That is the hard question. Consumers definitely have a role to play. Supporting farmers' markets, choosing heirloom varieties, pasture-fed meats, and those hybrid seeds like the Garden Gem. If people start demanding better-tasting, nutrient-dense foods, producers will respond. Michelle: So maybe it’s not about individual rebellion, but more about pushing the system in a better direction. Alex: Exactly. And realizing that prioritizing flavor isn't just about treating yourself. It's the key to nutrition and satisfaction. Fixing our food system means putting those two back together. Michelle: Okay, so next step: hit up the farmers market…and bring a magnifying glass for those tomato labels. Noted.

Alex: Okay, so we've established how real flavors have kind of been sidelined, right? Now, the big question is: how do artificial flavors step in and, like, “effectively” mess with that natural connection between taste and nutrition? Michelle: Yeah, break that bond! Alex: Right. So, here's what's really interesting: Artificial flavors can mimic or, you know, “boost” natural tastes, but without any of the actual nutrients that those tastes are meant to signal. It's like a... a total deception, almost. Your brain goes, "Sweetness equals ripeness or energy!" But then you have, like, a candy or a soda, and that sweetness is completely faked, totally disconnected from any real nutrition. Michelle: So, it’s like our taste buds are being, what, catfished? Tricked into thinking, "Oh, this food is amazing!" And then bam! Surprise! Empty calories. But how does all that work, actually? Alex: It all boils down to how our bodies evolved. Humans – and animals too! – developed this system called "nutritional wisdom." It's this instinctive way of balancing what we eat to get the nutrients we need. Like, a goat in the wild can sniff out the plants that have the minerals it's lacking. The taste acts as a guide, like nature saying, "Hey, this is what you need. Eat up!" Michelle: Okay, that makes sense. So, where do Doritos fit into all of this – with their... what do we even call it, their magical dust? Alex: That's where things get wonky, Michelle! Processed foods like Doritos completely hijack those instincts. Instead of giving you real nourishment, their artificial flavors just mess with your reward system, just to keep you eating - without giving you anything of actual value. Fred Provenza's research actually showed that animals, when they're fed artificially flavored but nutritionally empty food, they just keep on eating. Cause, you know, their bodies just can't find the signals that usually tell them “Okay, you've had enough.” Michelle: Hold on. So, goats, the animal that'll eat anything, fall for this artificial flavor trip? That’s kind of... horrifyingly impressive. Alex: I know, right? And get this: Provenza also found that animals learned to associate those artificial flavors with being rewarding, even when they weren’t. They’d actually choose the fake stuff over real food! It's the same with humans, really. Our brains are just wired to see flavor as a sign of nutrition, but artificial flavors kind of break that essential connection. You never actually hit that point of satisfaction, so you just don't stop eating. Michelle: Right, the endless Doritos loop. You're somehow always full but still reaching for the bag. So, what exactly are these flavor engineers doing in their labs to make this flavor so manipulative? Alex: Well, it's definitely a science. Modern flavor labs literally design tastes to exploit every craving we have – sweetness, saltiness, umami, all those things – and they amp them up to intensities that real food just doesn't naturally have. It's like... imagine watching a 3D movie with surround sound, right? Normal food, in comparison, is really muted. Michelle: I got it. Natural food is indie rock, and Doritos are a fireworks show at a stadium concert. Subtle versus overwhelming. Alex: Exactly, and it's actually more than just flavor, it's emotional too. These artificial flavors are carefully created to bring up feelings of comfort, nostalgia, indulgence. Take nacho cheese Doritos, for example. That flavor has elements of creaminess, tang, and even a bit of spice, everything you connect with homemade goodness. But they’re amplified to levels no real dish could ever hope to match. Michelle: So every bite of a Dorito is basically shouting, "This is comfort food, but TIMES TEN!" Okay, no wonder people keep wanting more. Alex: Precisely! This is directly linked to our brain's reward system. Studies actually demonstrate that eating artificially flavored food triggers dopamine spikes. This is the very same brain chemical involved in addiction. It's as if your brain is treating junk food like a prize, even when it’s a nutritional zero. Michelle: So, these processed snacks end up being the Las Vegas slot machines of the food world; designed to keep you hooked, even when they're robbing you blind. Alex: And the results are astonishing. See what happens after that to eating habits throughout the world. When artificial flavors became the norm for processed food, there was a significant rise in overeating and negative health effects. These items took the place of wholesome, natural foods in our diets, and to make matters worse, our palates have changed dramatically. Processed foods not only manipulate cravings, but also diminish our appreciation for delicate, natural flavors. Compared to its artificial equivalent, fresh food doesn't taste as 'good' anymore. Michelle: So you’re telling me that chasing nacho cheese bliss is actually blinding us to the pleasure of, you know, an actual tomato or a properly roasted chicken? Alex: Exactly! And that’s the battle we're facing: combating a food system that has fundamentally reshaped our desires as well as our perceptions of what constitutes "good" food. Michelle: How did Doritos even invent this flavor Frankenstein? Can you give us a case study? Alex: It all started in the 1960s with Arch West at Frito-Lay. He wanted to create a chip that could bring the flavor of tacos to snack form. His team used synthetic compounds to recreate and amplify the essence of taco spices—things like cheese, chili, garlic—but none of it came naturally. It worked so well that eating just one chip felt impossibly incomplete. You always wanted more. Michelle: Hence the old ad line, “Betcha can’t eat just one.” That wasn’t an accident, was it? Alex: Oh no—it was the whole point. West’s taco chips were the blueprint for future processed snacks. They weren’t designed merely to taste good—they were engineered to be addictive. That’s where the food industry's playbook began—layering fats, salts, sugars, and hyper-concentrated flavors so you’d crave more and more. Michelle: A chip as a gateway to infinite snacking. So, instead of moderation, we end up with binge-worthy junk food. Let’s zoom out—what kind of impact has this flavor manipulation had on society? Alex: It’s massive. As synthetic flavors became the standard for processed food, societies saw a huge leap in overconsumption and poor health outcomes. These products replaced traditional, whole foods in our diets. And what’s worse is the way people’s palates changed—processed food doesn’t just hijack cravings; it also dulls our appreciation for natural, subtler flavors. Fresh food literally doesn’t taste as ‘good’ anymore compared to its synthetic counterpart. Michelle: So you’re telling me that chasing nacho cheese bliss is actually blinding us to the pleasure of a real tomato or a proper roasted chicken? Alex: That’s exactly it. And this is the struggle—to fight against a food system that has essentially rewired not only our cravings but our perceptions of what “good” food even is.

Alex: Okay, Michelle, so understanding how we're manipulated by artificial flavors leads us to a really important question: how do we find our way back to real flavor? If artificial flavors have kind of hijacked our cravings, what's the antidote? Michelle: Exactly, Alex. It’s like we've been living in a flavor desert, and now we're searching for an oasis. So, how do we bring true flavor back into our lives? Alex: Well, that's where the good news comes in. Restoring flavor isn’t just some sentimental longing for the past. It’s actually a practical roadmap for fixing the way we farm, the way we eat, and even the way we think about food. The key here is reconnecting nutrition and flavor. And we can do that through things like heirloom varieties, sustainable farming practices, and, of course, making better choices as consumers. Michelle: Heirloom varieties...they sound like some kind of organic superhero team, swooping in to rescue our taste buds. So, tell me, what makes heirloom crops so special? Alex: Heirlooms are plants that have been carefully cultivated and handed down for generations because they taste amazing and have unique characteristics. They weren’t bred just for large-scale industrial farming, meaning nobody sacrificed flavor to make them bigger, shinier, or easier to ship. And honestly, you can taste that difference. Michelle: Let me guess, are we going to talk about tomatoes again? Alex: They are the perfect example. Harry Klee’s work with tomatoes is a great illustration. He studied what made heirloom tomatoes taste so incredible—those aromatic compounds called VOCs, volatile organic compounds, which are responsible for those rich flavors. Then, he figured out how to bring those qualities back into modern hybrids. His creation, the Garden Gem, is this fantastic blend of heirloom flavor and modern practicality. Michelle: So, a tomato that actually tastes like a tomato and can survive the trip to the grocery store? What's the catch here? Alex: The catch is that the modern food industry still doesn’t see flavor as a top priority. Even with solutions like the Garden Gem, the focus in agriculture is still mostly on mass production – things like yield per acre, uniformity, durability. So, basically, scientists like Klee have given us the tools to fix this, but the industry really needs to embrace them. Michelle: Alright, so tomatoes are getting some love. What about other crops—or even meats? Is flavor-focused agriculture something we're seeing in other areas, too? Alex: Absolutely. Let's take chickens, for instance. In Europe, they have the Label Rouge program, where chickens are raised on pastures and given diverse diets. Their meat develops really naturally rich flavors because they’re not crammed into industrialized feeding systems. These chickens are actually bred with taste in mind, which is something most supermarket chickens in the U.S. are “really” missing. Michelle: So, a chicken that doesn’t taste like, well, nothing? Revolutionary. Alex: It sounds simple, but it’s a huge step forward. And beyond just chickens, farmers are looking at how sustainable practices—like improving soil health and promoting crop diversity—can enhance the natural flavors of produce and meats. Healthier soil means healthier plants, and that means better-tasting, more nutritious food. Michelle: Okay, but let’s hold on a second. I totally get the appeal of pasture-raised chicken or heirloom tomatoes, but aren’t these things usually more expensive? How do we get regular families on board when processed food is so cheap? Alex: That’s a “really” valid point. And it’s why education and consumer engagement are so important. Farmers' markets, for example, give you direct access to affordable, seasonal produce. Then there are programs like community-supported agriculture, CSAs, which connect people directly with local farms, sometimes at prices that are competitive with supermarkets. It's about shifting our culture to value quality over convenience. Michelle: So, you’re saying, we should essentially vote with our wallets—but what if people don’t even know what to look for? I mean, how many shoppers can “really” tell the difference between an heirloom tomato and your average supermarket tomato? Alex: Well, that’s where awareness comes in. Part of the solution is teaching consumers about flavor and seasonality—explaining why, like, a fresh summer tomato tastes so much better than one shipped in during winter. And it's about helping people read labels carefully. A lot of "natural flavors" on packaging aren't “really” natural at all. By choosing less processed, locally grown foods, we can start undoing this flavor-nutrition disconnect on a personal level. Michelle: Okay, but all of this still feels like, you know, a drop in the bucket. What's the bigger picture here? How do we move beyond just individual choices? Alex: You're right, this needs to happen at a systemic level, too. Supporting restaurants that partner with local farms, encouraging chefs to highlight seasonal ingredients, or even government programs that support small farmers—these initiatives create a ripple effect. When the demand for authentic, flavor-rich food grows, the market starts to shift. Michelle: So, it's like, building a coalition...for flavor. I can get behind that. But what about action on the production side? Is there any “real” push to make large-scale farming more flavor-conscious? Alex: There’s definitely some progress, although it's slow. Some agricultural researchers are actively breeding crops for taste again, like Klee’s Garden Gem. And more farmers are adopting sustainable methods—crop rotation, organic soil practices—that naturally enhance flavor. But scaling these efforts is going to require serious investment and a collective decision to value flavor as much as efficiency. Michelle: Okay, I'm with you so far. It's not hopeless, but “realistically”, there’s a gap between what's ideal and what most people are willing to do. What's one “realistic”, immediate step our listeners can take to bring more “real” flavor into their lives? Alex: One simple step? Seek out locally grown, seasonal fruits and vegetables. Seasonal produce is harvested when it’s perfectly ripe, so it’s naturally more flavorful and nutritious. Supporting local farms also helps shift the demand back toward quality. Michelle: And for those skeptics out there who think heirloom tomatoes are just for fancy Instagram posts? Alex: I’d challenge them to actually try one! The difference in taste is pretty undeniable. Sometimes, all it takes to change your mind is one bite of something truly flavorful, and suddenly, the bland alternatives just don't cut it anymore. Michelle: So, the revolution starts with...one tomato? Seems fitting. Alex: It’s a symbol, Michelle—of how reconnecting to “real”, flavorful food can transform not just our diets, but our relationship with eating itself. It’s about savoring food again, not just consuming it. Michelle: Alright, alright. I'm convinced. Though, I’ll admit, it’s going to be tough to look at my next bag of Doritos the same way. Alex: Exactly! Recognizing what “real” flavor tastes like is the first step toward reclaiming it. Once you do, there’s no going back.

Michelle: Alright, so to bring it all home, we've sort of exposed how modern agriculture and, you know, artificial flavors have really pulled a fast one on us when it comes to "real" food. We've essentially swapped truly vibrant, nutrient-packed fruits, vegetables and meats for options that might be high-yield and last forever, but are, well, basically tasteless. And then, surprise, when food lost its flavor, in rushed processed snacks with their addictive, fake flavors – all thrill, zero substance. Alex: Exactly! The consequences are everywhere, aren't they? Overeating, health issues, and this fading memory of what food is actually supposed to taste like. But, like we said, it's not all doom and gloom. There's hope in things like Harry Klee's work, the comeback of older, heirloom varieties, and sustainable farming. They're paving a way back to food that's both flavorful and actually does something for you. Michelle: So, next time you're wandering the aisles, the takeaway is pretty simple: think a little harder about what you're tossing in that cart. Maybe look for what's in season, buy local when you can, or find meat from better sources. Let your taste buds remember what they've been missing, you know? Alex: Definitely don't just grab whatever's easiest. Really taste your food, get to know what genuine flavor is, and support the farmers and groups that care about quality. Each bite you take like that is a step in the right direction, for your own health and for the food system as a whole. Michelle: Okay, everyone, think of this as your official encouragement to expect more from your food – and maybe from yourselves too. Let's raise a glass to enjoying real flavors and leaving those flavor fakes behind. Alex: And to rediscovering the pure joy of eating as nature intended. One delicious bite at a time!