Roger: Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast! Patricia, let me kick things off with a question. Do you ever feel like leadership today is less about having all the answers and more about just navigating total chaos? Patricia: Oh, absolutely. Between office politics, looming deadlines, and the inevitable tech issues during meetings, leading a team sometimes feels like trying to steer a ship through a hurricane, doesn't it? Roger: Exactly! And that's precisely what we're diving into today—how to be a leader in this crazy VUCA world, you know, Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, and Ambiguity. This is where “Staring Down the Wolf” by Mark Divine really hits the mark. Patricia: So, no actual guide on dodging hurricanes then? Roger: Not exactly! Divine kind of merges lessons from the battlefield with those from the boardroom, and he breaks down leadership into five stages of development. Plus, he introduces these seven commitments that he believes define great leaders—things like trust, courage, resilience. But what I really love is how he frames leadership as an inner battle: the "fear wolf" versus the "courage wolf." Patricia: Wolves, huh? Sounds pretty intense. Are we talking fairy tale level wolves here? Like Little Red Riding Hood kind of thing? Roger: It's a metaphor, Patricia! Divine basically argues that authentic leadership starts with tackling those internal fears we all have. And importantly, he gives you some tools to do just that. Patricia: Okay, so what's the game plan for today's episode? A leadership boot camp with a bit of wolf-wrangling thrown in? Roger: Pretty close! We're going to break it down into three key parts. First, we'll explore the developmental stages that leaders go through—think of it as a kind of blueprint for becoming your best self. Then, we're going to unpack those seven commitments that really set exceptional leaders apart. And finally, we'll confront those inner wolves—the fears we have to, you know, tame to lead with courage and authenticity. Patricia: Alright, that sounds...intriguing. Let's see if I've got what it takes to stare down a wolf – or at least, you know, survive this podcast.

Roger: Okay Patricia, so I’ve teased these five developmental stages of leadership, Mark Divine calls them plateaus, right? So, where do we start on this leadership ladder? Patricia: Alright, Roger, you teased us with these five developmental stages of leadership, or plateaus, as Divine calls them. Let’s dive into the blueprint—what’s the first step on this leadership ladder? Roger: First up, we have the Egocentric plateau. Now, picture a brand-new leader, maybe a little overwhelmed, you know? At this stage, it's all about “them”. Their decisions? Driven by sheer survival. I mean, staying afloat, keeping control, and avoiding failure. It’s a very self-protective place to be. Patricia: So basically, the “me, myself, and I” version of leadership. How does that play out in a real-world situation? Roger: Good question. Imagine a new manager on their first big project. Instead of trusting their team, they micromanage everything, right? Maybe because they’re terrified someone will realize they're inexperienced. They hoard information, thinking sharing it will diminish their authority. And guess what? The team feels stifled, innovation grinds to a halt, and trust just… vanishes. Patricia: Wow, that actually sounds exhausting—for both the leader and the team. So, is the Egocentric stage unavoidable, though? I mean, isn’t there always a bit of “I need to prove myself” when you’re new? Roger: Absolutely, that's human nature. Divine says this stage isn’t inherently “bad," it's just… limiting. It’s a starting point, not where you should end up. Great leaders recognize when they're stuck in that mindset and actively work to move beyond it. Patricia: Point taken. Survival instincts are running the show. So, what comes next? Roger: That's the Ethnocentric plateau. The focus shifts from "me" to "us." It's all about belonging, about being loyal to a group, aligning with shared values, and really prioritizing the collective good. Patricia: Sounds… almost too good to be true. There’s a catch, right? Roger: Always! On the one hand, leaders start to see the power of teamwork and camaraderie here. Divine uses the Navy SEALs as a prime example. Every new recruit adopts the SEAL ethos—shared purpose and interdependence. No man left behind—that’s Ethnocentric leadership in action. Patricia: Okay, but where's the dark side? I know it’s lurking somewhere. Roger: It is. That loyalty to the group can become… exclusive. Leaders might resist outside ideas or struggle to collaborate with those outside their circle, because it feels like a threat to their identity. Think of it like this: in a company, a team leader might prioritize their department over the entire organization. That creates silos and stifles growth. Patricia: So, the challenge here is balancing loyalty with openness. Got it. What happens when a leader goes beyond mere team loyalty? What's the next stage? Roger: The Achiever plateau. Personal ambition and external success take center stage. We're talking metrics, milestones, climbing that corporate ladder. Patricia: Let me guess—this is where you find those managers with the never-ending PowerPoint presentations about KPIs and quarterly projections? Roger: Bingo! Achievers are very goal-oriented, which can be fantastic for progress. But that relentless focus on results? It often comes at a cost. Think burnout, decreased team morale, or even high turnover. Patricia: Sounds like your stereotypical "hustle culture" leader. Do they at least realize that this relentless push for success might not be sustainable? Roger: Sometimes, and sometimes not. Divine emphasizes that Achievers need to balance their ambition with empathy. Imagine a sales manager hyper-focused on hitting revenue benchmarks. Initially, they might see great numbers, but if their team feels overworked and undervalued, the long-term results are going to tank. Patricia: Oof, this is where leaders start realizing it's not just about winning, but how you win, right? Roger: Exactly. The Achiever stage is key because it forces leaders to confront these trade-offs. Once they learn how to balance drive with emotional intelligence, they're ready to move to the next plateau, which is: Visionary. Patricia: Ah, getting into the big-picture stuff. What defines a Visionary leader? Roger: Visionary leaders think beyond themselves or their immediate team. They're considering the broader impact of their actions. They're known for rallying diverse groups around a compelling purpose – social change, environmental advocacy, transforming how a business operates... Patricia: Change-the-world types! But I'm guessing it's not all TED Talks and inspirational speeches, right? What challenges do Visionaries face? Roger: Good point. Visionaries inspire, but they also face resistance. Their ideas often challenge the status quo. Look at sustainability advocates in large corporations—they might push for eco-friendly changes that also make business sense, but they'll encounter resistance from those clinging to old habits. They need resilience and strategic thinking to maintain momentum. Patricia: Alright, now we’re working on a whole other level. But what happens when a leader moves past visionary thinking? What’s the final stage? Roger: That ultimate plateau is Integrated leadership. A leader seamlessly unites all the previous stages—balancing personal ambition, team loyalty, broader vision, and global consciousness. Patricia: Integrated—sounds like the ultimate boss level. What does that look like in practice? Roger: A great example is Admiral Eric Olson, a senior Navy SEAL leader. He constantly balanced operational excellence with deep empathy for his team—their emotional and moral well-being. Whether a high-stakes rescue mission or a routine debrief, he combined courage with accountability. It inspired trust and loyalty without losing sight of the bigger picture. Patricia: So it’s all about integration—adapting your approach depending on the situation, but staying true to your values and purpose? Roger: Precisely. Integrated leaders embody the wisdom and inclusivity needed to navigate massively complex challenges, and they don’t just lead the team, they elevate it. Patricia: Okay, I think I see the bigger picture now. Moving through these stages isn't just about improving yourself, it's about learning how to amplify the potential of those around you. Alright, you have painted this beautiful picture! What’s next then—how do leaders break past the plateaus holding them back?

Roger: So, understanding these plateaus really sets the stage for what's next: the actionable commitments leaders need to succeed in a VUCA world. Think of Mark Divine’s seven leadership commitments – they're not just nice ideas; they’re concrete steps to help leaders break past their limits and inspire their teams. Patricia: Alright, moving from theory to practice. I like that. Seven commitments sounds pretty comprehensive. What's number one? And please, let it not be some tired cliché like "Be fearless." Roger: Don't worry, it's anything but. The first commitment is “Commit to Courage”, but Divine gives courage a really fresh take. It’s not about not being afraid. It’s about recognizing that fear, owning it, and still moving forward. Patricia: So, it's less about denying fear, and more about facing it down. I can see how that's important if you're jumping out of a helicopter into a combat zone, but how does that translate to, say, an office job? Roger: Actually, it's super relevant. Imagine a leader who's afraid to admit, "Hey, I don't have all the answers." Leaders often feel like they need to project total confidence, you know, even when they're not sure. But real courage is being willing to be vulnerable, to say to your team, "Okay, this is new territory, and honestly, I’m not 100% sure how we should tackle it, but we'll figure it out together." That kind of honesty builds trust, and that opens the door for real collaboration. Patricia: It's funny, isn't it? Admitting you're vulnerable almost feels like the opposite of courage, but, ultimately, that's what earns people's respect. Roger: Exactly. Divine talks about that incredible situation during the Battle of Mogadishu, where Navy SEAL Eric Olson led a rescue mission in truly impossible conditions. His team was facing off against a much larger, heavily armed enemy force, and instead of panicking or waiting, he chose to act. The really important thing is, Olson wasn't just relying on blind bravery. His leadership inspired the Quick Reaction Force, who were actually hesitant at first because they were scared, to step up and follow his lead. Patricia: So, Olson's courage wasn't just about personal bravery, it was about getting other people to act despite their fear. That's really powerful. Roger: Exactly. Courage in leadership isn't about just rushing headfirst into danger. It's about making tough calls, taking responsibility, and showing your team that struggling is okay, as long as you're committed to moving ahead. Patricia: Okay, courage is the first piece of the puzzle. What comes next? Roger: Next we have “Commit to Trust”. And the thing is, trust isn’t just about saying, "Yeah, I believe in you." You build it through your actions, through being transparent, and by being accountable. Elite teams, like the SEALs, they depend on trust to survive, literally. Patricia: I bet you they don't rely on a lot of "good job" to motivate each other either. Roger: Nope. In that kind of environment, trust is built on total honesty. Divine talks about how SEALs deal with rapidly changing situations by openly sharing what's working and what's not. For example, during Mogadishu, operators were constantly updating each other, sharing intel about enemy positions, even if it was bad news. That level of transparency is what allowed them to make decisions quickly and cohesively when it mattered most. Patricia: That sounds great for Navy SEALs, but what about lower-stakes environments? How does a manager build that kind of trust without, you know, handing out camouflage gear and radios? Roger: Good point. In the workplace, it starts with leaders holding themselves accountable. So, say you make a bad call – don't try to shift blame or hide it. You admit, "Okay, so that decision didn't go as planned, and here's what I've learned from it." When leaders do that, it creates a culture where it's safe for everybody to own up to their part, too. Patricia: Sounds good in theory, but what if trust is already damaged? Like, what if you're in an environment where this level of transparency just isn't the norm? Roger: Rebuilding lost trust takes time and consistent attention. The thing is, Divine recommends frequent check-ins. To create space for open dialogue. And not just about tasks, but about concerns, frustrations, even fears. Asking questions like "How can I support you better?" goes a long way in showing you care. And then there’s one simple but critical rule - always follow through on your promises, no matter how small they are. Patricia: Right, because nothing sinks trust faster than broken promises, even the small ones. Roger: Exactly. And you can't really have trust without the third commitment, “Commit to Respect”. This is more than just surface politeness. It’s about valuing everyone's contribution, no matter where they are in the hierarchy. Patricia: I'm guessing Divine will take this beyond just basic politeness. Roger: Absolutely he does. He points to leaders like Captain Jim O'Connell, who always put fairness and equality first, even during intense military operations. He made sure resources were shared fairly and made sure that everyone, from senior officers to junior ranks, had a chance to voice their concerns. That built a team where mutual respect drove motivation and trust. Patricia: And I'm sure you can't just declare respect for it to become practice. Roger: Exactly. Divine suggests some really practical ways to show respect. Like active listening: when people on your team are sharing ideas, don’t just nod and move on — ask questions like, “What inspired this approach?” or “How could we take this even further?” It proves that you’re really listening and value their input. Patricia: So it's showing respect not just for their ideas, but also for their way of thinking and their contribution. Roger: Exactly. And when people feel respected, it paves the way for the next commitment: “Commit to Growth”. That’s about pushing past your comfort zone, both individually and as a team. Patricia: Let me guess—this is where he starts talking about SEAL training? Roger: You got it. Hell Week in SEAL training is like, the ultimate growth-through-discomfort experience. Trainees face grueling, seemingly impossible challenges, from sleep deprivation to insane physical tasks. But the real lesson isn't just about personal toughness; it’s about how much more you can achieve when you depend on your team. Patricia: So it's as much about collaboration as it is about resilience. Roger: Exactly. And it applies to organizations just as well. Great leaders will embrace challenges as opportunities for growth, even uncomfortable. They set stretch goals, encourage people to take on new roles, and build mentorship relationships. Patricia: Guessing the idea is to learn from failures, not to eliminate them. Roger: You’re on point. Leaders committed to growth show their teams that failure isn't the end, it is the road to success. Which leads to the fifth commitment: “Commit to Excellence”. Patricia: Really intrigues me. I mean, what even is excellence in leadership? Surely, it's not about being perfect all the time. Roger: It's definitely not. Excellence, according to Divine, means constantly striving to improve, not to be perfect. It’s about maintaining curiosity, questioning assumptions, always experimenting with new ideas, and finding ways to make complex things simpler. Patricia: So, you should constantly sharpen the axe instead of swinging it bluntly Roger: Exactly. Richard Patriciainko, the first commander of SEAL Team Six, showed that perfectly with his "Red Team" initiative. He deliberately assigned teams to simulate enemy tactics and try to find weaknesses in U.S. security systems. The purpose wasn't fault-finding – it was to reveal vulnerabilities to improve on. Patricia: So excellence isn't just about results; it's about constantly refining things. Roger: And leaders need to embrace resilience to maintain excellence, that is the sixth commitment. Resilience means not just bouncing back, challenges make us to be stronger as a team every time. Patricia: Starting to see how these commitments are connected. Like an ecosystem for leadership. How are they linked to alignment? Roger: Alignment underpins it all. When leaders unite a team with common values and practices, both team cohesion and purpose are enhanced. An aligned team just moves seamlessly towards its goal, especially in chaotic conditions. Patricia: So alignment ensures that these commitments move the team forward instead of just being labels. Divine weaves these concepts together perfectly.

Roger: So, with these core principles in mind, let's dive into how leaders can “really” confront their deepest fears and established behaviors . These often hold them back from fully embracing these principles we've been discussing . We’re talking about tackling those psychological and emotional hurdles, and how this all translates into real-world leadership with real impact. Patricia: Okay, now we’re hitting the core – fear . Roger, let's be real, nobody enjoys admitting their fears, especially at work, right? Fear of failing, fear of appearing foolish, fear of losing control – it's this constant weight, secretly holding you back. Roger: Precisely . That’s why Mark Divine’s idea of “staring down the wolf” is so compelling . He uses the 'fear wolf' to represent all those nagging doubts and insecurities . And the truth is, fear is unavoidable, but truly great leaders don’t allow it to dictate their actions . Instead, they face it head-on, and in doing so, they can actually transform that fear into a motivator for growth, rather than something that paralyzes them. Patricia: Okay, but that's definitely easier said than done, isn't it? When fear takes over, it can feel like you're completely frozen, operating on autopilot . How does Divine recommend even starting to deal with something like that? Roger: He emphasizes that it all starts with self-awareness . Leaders need to be able to pinpoint when fear is influencing their decisions and actions . Let me give you a tangible example . Imagine a CEO who's reluctant to update an outdated system because they're worried about the potential backlash from stakeholders . They stick with what they know, and that fear of the unknown ultimately leads to stagnation. Patricia: Right, because sticking with the status quo feels safe, but it can actually be more risky in the long run . So, is that essentially conditioning? We’re often taught to avoid failure at all costs. Roger: Exactly – it's negative conditioning at work . It's all those ingrained patterns shaped by past experiences, cultural norms, and even traumatic events . Think about someone stuck in that Egocentric plateau we talked about earlier . They micromanage because they have been conditioned to believe that delegating means losing control . Or someone at the Achiever plateau might intentionally undermine collaborative efforts because they are afraid of losing their status. Patricia: So, what you’re saying is that fear isn’t some random emotion; it’s more like a deeply ingrained habit that's wired into our brains? Roger: Absolutely . It's like a program running in the background, constantly influencing our decisions . And if we don't confront it, we might not even realize the extent to which it's limiting us, or how it's manifesting – whether it's through avoidance, overconfidence, or defensiveness. Patricia: Okay, so step one: identify the fear wolf and understand how it's impacting your decisions . What's next? Do I just try to think positive thoughts and hope it magically disappears? Roger: Not exactly . Divine suggests more practical tools, such as mindfulness and reflection, to essentially reprogram your automatic responses . Box breathing, for example, is a technique he often recommends. Patricia: Right, the inhale-for-four, hold-for-four technique . It sounds simple, but how effective is it at calming your nerves? Roger: It works by calming your nervous system, shifting you from that fight-or-flight response to a more considered and intentional state of mind . It's ideal for “really” stressful situations – whether you're a SEAL in a firefight or a manager facing a difficult choice. Patricia: Okay, so box breathing helps you regain clarity in the moment . But does it truly address the underlying roots of fear? For example, how do you undo years of deeply ingrained conditioning? Roger: That’s a “really” insightful question . This where self-reflection becomes invaluable . Divine's method involves asking yourself some tough questions: "What am I truly afraid of?" "What's the worst thing that could happen?" "What triggers this fear, and why?" As leaders start to unpack these core patterns, they're able to replace fear-based habits with more positive, constructive ones. Patricia: So, it's about turning your brain into its own detective, searching for clues to better understand your behaviours. Roger: Exactly . And soliciting feedback is another critical tool . Trusted colleagues or mentors can help you identify blind spots, those areas in your actions or thought processes that you might not recognize on your own . Imagine fostering an environment where people feel secure enough to say, "Hey, when you micromanage, it “really” stifles our creativity.” That's where genuine leadership growth occurs. Patricia: But for that to actually work, leaders have to be open to feedback . And, frankly, showing that kind of openness can be pretty daunting. Roger: It can be, but it's absolutely essential . Vulnerability is a central theme in Divine's message . He talks about SEAL leaders openly acknowledging their fears – not as a weakness, but as an opportunity to build stronger bonds of trust. Patricia: That reminds me of that rescue operation in Mogadishu that Divine highlights . SEAL Eric Olson's team initially froze up, paralyzed by the intense enemy fire . But Olson admitted his fear, stepped up regardless, and motivated action from his team. Roger: Correct . It's a perfect example of courage combined with vulnerability . Olson's honesty not only motivated his team but also provided a framework for addressing fear as a collective. Patricia: So, instead of concealing his fear, he demonstrated how to confront it and continue forward . That must have dramatically shifted the team's dynamic. Roger: Absolutely . And that's the key takeaway for leaders today whether they’re in the military or managing a corporate team . Fear isn't the enemy – it's a signal to take action . By confronting it openly, leaders can transform it from a barrier into a pathway for development and trust. Patricia: And it sounds like when you face your fear wolf, you’re not just freeing yourself – you’re also empowering your team to tackle their own challenges too. Roger: Exactly . Authentic leadership is contagious . It creates a ripple effect, fostering resilience and alignment throughout the entire organization.

Roger: Okay, Patricia, let’s bring this home. Today we dove deep into Mark Divine's leadership framework, right? We walked through those five plateaus of development and the seven core commitments that “really” set extraordinary leaders apart. It's all about how leaders evolve from being focused on themselves to becoming these visionary figures who can make a “real” global impact. Patricia: Absolutely. We “really” dissected those seven commitments—courage, trust, respect, growth, excellence, resilience, and alignment. It's more than just a list of aspirational terms; it's a practical guide for navigating the messy reality of leadership today. Roger: Exactly! And the whole thing hinges on how we deal with what Divine calls the "fear wolf"—you know, those insecurities that keep us playing small. His message is spot on: face those fears head-on, use mindfulness, take time for self-reflection, and lead from a place of genuine authenticity. Patricia: So the core insight here is that leadership isn't about pretending you have all the answers or avoiding fear. It's about embracing vulnerability, building trust through your actions, and inspiring your team to grow, even when it’s tough. How do we translate these abstract ideas of staring down your "fear wolf" to our actual lives? Roger: Well, that's the challenge for everyone listening this week: Identify one fear that's been holding you back. “Really” look at it, confront it, and then take some kind of action. The ability to be courageous is within all of us—it just needs to be cultivated like a muscle. Patricia: Right, and keep in mind that leaders who confront their "wolves" and demons don't just change themselves, they enable their teams to reach their full potential. Roger: Powerful stuff, Patricia. Thanks for an incredible discussion, and thanks to everyone listening! Until next time, keep confronting those wolves.