Roger: Hey everyone, welcome back! Today we're diving into a really interesting topic: challenging everything you think you know about leadership. How often do you hold back from sharing an idea or taking charge because you don't have the “right” title? Patricia: Oh, I know that feeling. It's like, "Well, it's not my place," or worse, "What's the point? No one's going to listen to me anyway." I've definitely been there. Roger: Totally! And that's where Keith Ferrazzi's book, Leading Without Authority, comes in. It completely rethinks traditional leadership, showing us that anyone, at any level, can make a real difference. It's all about this concept called "co-elevation"—a collaborative way of working where you lift each other up to achieve a shared goal. Patricia: Co-elevation? Is this just some touchy-feely teamwork stuff, or does it actually have some teeth? Roger: No, no, it's way more than just feeling good, Patricia. Ferrazzi backs it up with research, real-life examples, and, most importantly, practical strategies. He shows how co-elevation isn't just a nice idea – it can seriously boost innovation and drive progress. Patricia: Okay, you've got my attention. So, what are we going to cover today? Roger: Here's the plan. First, we'll explore the core of co-elevation, and how it replaces those old-fashioned hierarchies with true collaboration. Then, we'll talk about the things that hold us back – like fear, ego, and of course, the traditional power structure. And finally, we'll break down actionable steps to build trust, encourage responsibility, and celebrate our wins together. Patricia: So, it's kind of like building a bridge, right? Getting everyone from thinking "What's in it for me?" to "Hey, let's make this happen together!" Roger: Exactly! It's time to rethink what leadership really means. Ready to jump in?

Roger: Okay, so, let's dive right into co-elevation. Basically, it's about rethinking what leadership “really” means. We usually think of it as a top-down thing, right? The boss makes all the calls. But co-elevation says, "Hold on, that's not the only way." It’s more about everyone supporting each other, sharing responsibilities, and seeing leadership as something anyone can step up and do. Patricia: So, it's leadership without needing a fancy office? But how does that work when, you know, hierarchies exist? I mean, bosses are still a thing, right? Roger: Absolutely, hierarchies are still there. But co-elevation doesn't ignore that. It's about encouraging collaboration at all levels. People contribute not because they have to, but because they genuinely believe in what they're doing together. Remember Mateo from the Pocketcoach story? He had brilliant ideas but didn't want to share because he wasn't high up enough. Patricia: Ah, right! And if I recall, he spoke up eventually, and boom, his ideas transformed the company's direction. Roger: Exactly! What changed for him was seeing the leadership team as people he could work with, not authority figures. That change—from fear to trust—unlocked his potential and the team's creativity. Co-elevation is all about this: treating everyone like they have something valuable, no matter their title. Patricia: Okay, Mateo's story is inspiring, but what if people just aren't interested? What if someone on my team is just there for a paycheck? How does co-elevation handle “that”? Roger: I get it, getting someone to participate who's not engaged can be tricky. But the thing is, co-elevation isn't about forcing people. It's about creating an environment where everyone feels respected and wants to contribute. That’s where inclusivity comes in. It's not enough to just invite people; you need to make sure their voices are heard and that they feel like they belong. Patricia: Right, that makes sense. Which brings us to Zina and Devon’s story, doesn't it? Roger: Yes. Zina was a senior leader in healthcare, and Devon was her junior colleague. Their relationship was tense, filled with friction and miscommunication. But Zina decided to do something about it. She reached out to Devon, truly listened to him, and showed that she understood the pressures he was under. That vulnerability allowed them to collaborate effectively, and their dynamic transformed. Patricia: So, it's not just about creating space, but about sharing that space in a way that says, "Hey, you matter.” That’s simple but surprisingly lacking sometimes. Roger: Exactly. Co-elevation means more than just agreeing; it's about actively seeking out different perspectives and understanding that everyone brings something unique. When teams embrace inclusivity, they go beyond basic collaboration and start solving issues innovatively, because they have a richer set of viewpoints to draw from. Patricia: Alright, but let’s be honest here. Sometimes people don’t even realize they’re being exclusive or dismissive. How does co-elevation address the emotions that come with being human? Egos are definitely a thing. Roger: Excellent question. This is where emotional resonance becomes important, a key element of co-elevation. It's about connecting deeper than just the work itself. Emotional intelligence becomes the bridge to deal with insecurities. Think about Kyle, the CEO who seemed cold and only focused on performance. Patricia: Ah yes, and Connie, his colleague, had the courage to confront him, right? Roger: Exactly! Connie didn't just throw criticism; she gave honest, helpful feedback. She detailed how his leadership was affecting the team's morale and suggested improvements. It took courage, but it changed Kyle's leadership style and the team's energy completely. Patricia: So, Kyle had his moment of realization, thanks to Connie. So, does this mean co-elevation is basically emotional training for everyone involved? Roger: In a way, yes! Co-elevation asks us to go beyond just getting things done and focus on relationships. It means building trust through openness, even when it's not easy. That's how people like Connie and Kyle shift the culture from just doing the required to truly investing in the team. Patricia: Right, Roger. Let’s wrap this up. We’ve talked about mutual support, inclusivity, and emotional intelligence as the foundation of co-elevation. But what does “success” look like here? Is it just a happy team, or is there something more...? Roger: Definitely more tangible results. Co-elevation is about shared success. It changes the focus from "How do I succeed?" to "How can we innovate and grow together?" That's why Mateo's ideas reshaped Pocketcoach. That’s why Zina and Devon improved how things were done. It’s not just one person saving the day; it’s everyone contributing with a common goal. Patricia: So, it’s the power of working together versus working alone. Got it. Roger: Exactly. Once that change happens, teams don't just meet expectations, they redefine what's possible. And that’s a leadership style anyone, at any level, can adopt.

Roger: So, Patricia, this whole co-elevation idea naturally leads us to breaking down traditional leadership barriers, right? It's not just some pie-in-the-sky theory. We're talking about real obstacles. Things like deference to hierarchy, that victim mentality, and the fear of confrontation. Overcoming those—that's the bridge to true collaborative leadership. Patricia: You're totally right. Let's start with hierarchy. I mean, isn't blind obedience kind of ingrained in most workplaces? Roger: Exactly! Deference to authority. It's that little voice saying, "I can't challenge my boss," or "This is above my pay grade." Classic examples of people sidelining themselves. Patricia: Preaching to the choir, Roger. But let's play devil's advocate here. Aren't there times when deferring to hierarchy makes sense? Like, if you're just starting out, how do you know when it's okay to speak up without overstepping? Roger: That's a fair point. Co-elevation isn't about anarchy. It's about recognizing when your input actually adds value, hierarchy or not. Take Mateo from Pocketcoach. He had innovative ideas, but he hesitated because he wasn't in a senior role. Sound familiar? Patricia: Right, I remember that. And he finally plucked up the courage to present those ideas directly to the execs. No power plays, just a well-thought-out pitch. And the leadership team loved it. Sounds like it shifted not only the product’s direction but his own standing in the company, right? Roger: Bingo. Mateo's story is perfect for busting that "It's not my call" mindset. When you focus on solving problems, not on worrying about the org chart, innovation happens. Breaking that barrier of deference? It's less about challenging authority and more about collaborating with it. Patricia: Okay, I buy that. But what if someone raises their hand, puts themselves out there, and gets completely shot down? Does that mean game over? Roger: Absolutely not. Every time you step up, you build credibility, even if it doesn't pay off immediately. People need to see persistence. Which leads us to the next barrier: the victim mentality. Patricia: Ugh, yes. The "woe is me, the system's rigged" syndrome. I know that one well—heck, I’ve probably indulged in it more than I care to admit. But Roger, let me play skeptic again. Breaking out of victim mentality isn’t easy for people who feel stuck. It’s easier to blame the system than to look inward, don't you think? Roger: True. That's why it takes real effort. Even the author admits he fell into that trap himself! After he lost his CMO gig at Starwood Hotels, he blamed everything external—bad luck, office politics, what have you. But then he realized his mindset was limiting his ability to collaborate and take initiative. Patricia: So, he had to flip the script—from "Why is this happening to me?" to "What role did I play in this?" Less finger-pointing, more holding up the mirror, essentially. Roger: Exactly! And that's where co-elevation really shines. Taking ownership—good or bad—allows you to rebuild trust, mend relationships, and see challenges as opportunities. When you stop playing the victim, you stop waiting for change and start driving it. Patricia: Alright, so we've tackled hierarchy and self-pity. Let's talk about fear—specifically, the fear of confrontation. Because, let's face it, not everyone's a fan of tough conversations, eh? Roger: So true. People avoid it, thinking they're keeping the peace. But usually, avoiding conflict just breeds resentment. Co-elevation? It's about leaning into those uncomfortable moments. Remember Connie, that head of customer experience who talked to her CEO about his toxic leadership style? Patricia: Yeah, her story "really" stuck with me. She told Kyle, the CEO, that his behavior was hurting the team's morale. But instead of just laying blame, she framed it as wanting the team to succeed. That collaborative tone opened the door to an actual dialogue, rather than a defensive shutdown. Roger: Precisely. Kyle didn't transform overnight, but that honest conversation planted the seed. Connie's ability to confront the issue with courage and empathy was key. Caring candor, as Ferrazzi calls it—giving tough feedback with the intention to help, not harm. Patricia: Okay, so confrontation isn’t the villain—it’s handling it poorly that’s the problem. Makes sense. And honestly, Connie’s approach feels like a masterclass in balancing honesty with diplomacy. Roger: It is! Confronting fear head-on—fear of failure, rejection, conflict—that's how leaders make breakthroughs. And by practicing tools like caring candor, you create a culture where feedback isn’t an attack; it's a step toward shared success. Patricia: Alright, Roger. We’ve covered a lot—hierarchy, victim mentality, fear. But let’s get practical now. How does someone actually start breaking these barriers? Any concrete tools we can use? Roger: It begins with reframing leadership. Stop thinking of it as a title and start seeing it as a shared responsibility. Teams thrive when everyone asks, "How can I contribute to solving this?" Then, focus on self-reflection. If you're blaming others, ask, "What role did I play here?" And finally, practice dialogue skills. Those courageous conversations—like Connie's with Kyle—they take preparation, empathy, and focus. Patricia: And don't forget celebrating wins, right? Even the small ones. If Mateo's story at Pocketcoach tells us anything, it's that recognition can basically transform hesitation into momentum. Roger: Exactly! Every time you step up, every courageous conversation, all those moments of support—they build on each other. That's what dismantles the barriers we're so used to and replaces them with bridges of trust and collaboration.

Roger: So, now that we've talked about breaking down the barriers, let's dive into the practical side, the "how-to" of building co-elevating relationships. We want to make this more than just a nice idea, right? How do we actually make it work? Patricia: Okay, Roger, so we're moving from theory to practice. This is about turning abstract concepts into real-world actions. What's our plan for getting there? Roger: We're going to break it down into three key areas: building trust and relationships, engaging in peer-to-peer development, and celebrating achievements. Each of these is vital for fostering a culture where co-elevation can really thrive. Patricia: Right, trust makes sense as the starting point. After all, without trust, are you really building anything of substance? Roger: Exactly, Patricia. Trust is the bedrock. And the book identifies three dimensions of trust: professional, structural, and personal. Let’s start with professional trust, the most straightforward of the three. It centers around consistently meeting expectations. Patricia: So, professional trust is like saying, "I trust Sarah to nail that presentation because she always does her homework." It’s about competence and reliability, right? Roger: Precisely. It's about showing up, doing your job effectively, and being dependable. However, professional trust can be fragile when communication fails or actions are misunderstood. The story of Sandy and Jane illustrates this perfectly. Sandy felt that Jane was intentionally excluding her from important decisions. Patricia: And didn't it turn out that Jane wasn't being malicious? She was just wrestling with her own insecurities about the team's performance? Roger: Exactly! Once they opened up and clarified their intentions, a stronger foundation of trust began to emerge. Misunderstandings can erode professional trust, but open, honest communication can help rebuild it. Patricia: So, lesson one: misinterpretations are trust's biggest enemy. Got it. Now, what about "structural trust"? That sounds a bit… corporate, doesn't it? Roger: It often is. Structural trust refers to the systems and processes within an organization. Think transparent communication, clearly defined roles, and consistent decision-making. For Sandy and Jane, this was actually another point of friction. Decisions were being made in silos, without enough transparency, which led to frustration. Once they restructured their workflows to be more inclusive and transparent, the frustration eased, and trust grew. Patricia: So, if the decision-making process is opaque, no amount of individual competence can compensate for that systemic breakdown, right? Roger: Exactly, processes really do matter. Now, here's where it gets truly interesting; personal trust takes things to a deeper, more emotional level. Patricia: Ah, the warm and fuzzy part. So, what exactly does personal trust bring to the table? Roger: It's about authentic connections. It's when you move beyond "Sarah's great at her job" to "Sarah genuinely cares about the success of the team and me personally." For Sandy and Jane, the real turning point was when Sandy acknowledged Jane’s hard work during a particularly challenging project. That personal moment of appreciation solidified their relationship and boosted their collaboration. Patricia: I see the picture here so professional trust is like laying the foundation, structural trust is the framework, and personal trust is really the glue that holds it all together. But let's get down to brass tacks. What concrete things can people actually do to build these kinds of trust? Roger: Empathy mapping is a great place to start. The idea is to step into someone else's shoes, trying to understand their thoughts, feelings, and concerns. Another useful tool is scheduling regular check-ins to promote consistent communication. These moments provide opportunities to clear up any misunderstandings before they become real problems. Patricia: And what about fixing structural issues? Are there tools to address that too? Roger: Absolutely. Things like transparent systems—sharing team performance data openly or establishing clear delegation protocols—are critical for building structural trust. When everyone knows how decisions are made, there’s less room for suspicion or unspoken frustrations. Patricia: Alright, so we’ve built trust. Let's move on to peer-to-peer development. This is about creating a culture where everyone's both a leader and a learner. Roger: Precisely! Peer-to-peer development turns the traditional mentoring model on its head, with everyone acting as both coach and mentee. It's an active exchange of feedback and support that aids everyone's growth. Patricia: Any success stories from the book that show how this plays out in the real world? Roger: Definitely. Take Daphne and Carter. They started off as two executives who just couldn’t see eye-to-eye professionally. Daphne decided to shift their dynamic by offering honest but constructive feedback. Instead of flat-out criticizing Carter, she would use a gentler approach, like, "Here’s a perspective you might consider." That lowered the walls, allowing Carter to engage without feeling defensive. Patricia: So Daphne didn't force change she invited it. And I imagine that once they sorted out their communication, their teams benefited as well? Roger: Exactly! Their collaboration not only improved their relationship but also boosted the performance of their entire organization, which went from struggling to thriving. Patricia: That's quite a turnaround. How do you actually implement this kind of peer-to-peer development in the real world? Roger: Start with mutual accountability. For example, setting up regular peer check-ins where team members track and support each other's progress. Also, establish a feedback culture, encouraging open-ended questions like, "What could we improve as a team?" And finally, self-reflection is key. Teams should regularly assess their strengths and areas for growth, even pairing up to share their insights for added perspective. Patricia: Okay, so we're building a support network. Which brings us to the final piece: recognizing and celebrating achievements. Roger: Recognition is extremely powerful because it reinforces a culture of positivity and respect. When team members feel appreciated, they tend to be more motivated and engaged. Patricia: All this sounds wonderful, but does the book offer an example of this in action? Roger: Absolutely. Consider Miles, a CMO who wasn't embracing the creative innovation that his company needed. When Ferrazzi recognized Miles’s unique strengths and aspirations rather than trying to force him into a role he didn’t want it completely changed Miles’s outlook. Recognition, tailored to individual motivations, can transform hesitation into momentum. Patricia: So instead of generic praise, the key is to make the acknowledgment meaningful and specific. Roger: Exactly. And there are practical ways to do it: build regular moments of recognition into team routines, customize celebrations to align with individual goals, and highlight even small milestones to maintain momentum. Patricia: Got it, trust, development, and recognition in other words, if you implement these three strategies effectively, co-elevation shifts from just a concept to an actual culture. Roger: Precisely. It's a system for multiplying leadership potential, and when applied consistently, it drives collaboration and innovation at every level.

Roger: Okay, let’s bring this home. So, today, we really dug into how co-elevation is changing the whole leadership game, right? It’s about moving away from this idea of the lone wolf leader to a more collective approach. Mutual support, inclusivity, real collaboration... that's what really matters, and that goes way beyond just traditional hierarchies. And, of course, we talked about the hurdles too – fear, ego, those rigid power structures – and how tackling those opens the door for real connections and fresh ideas. Patricia: Right. So, basically, success isn’t about who has the fanciest title or the corner office, huh? It’s about trust, owning your part, and being brave enough to jump into the deep end when things get tough. Whether it’s calling out some bad behavior or just throwing your own ideas into the mix. Roger: Exactly! So, here’s the thing to remember: leadership isn’t something you wait for, it’s something you actively step into. I would say, this week, just try one little thing. Maybe build trust by simply asking someone how you can support them, or maybe celebrate a colleague's unique contribution to spark some more collaboration. Patricia: Yeah, and while you’re doing that, take a look in the mirror too. Ask yourself, "Am I really stepping up here, or am I holding back?" Because the real question shouldn't be "Who's the boss?"—it should be "What can we achieve together?". Roger: Couldn't have put it better myself, Patricia. Co-elevation, it’s not just another buzzword or strategy, right? It’s a fundamental shift in how we think, and it has the power to transform teams, relationships, and even entire organizations. Now, it is “really” up to each of us to bring it all to life. Patricia: Think big, start small, and start thinking like a leader – no permission needed. Catch you next time!