Roger: Hey everyone, welcome to the podcast! Today, we're diving deep into something that affects all our relationships: how we see ourselves and others. Have you ever been absolutely convinced someone else was the problem, only to realize later you might've played a role too? Patricia: Roger, are you implying that I might not always be perfect? That's a bold claim! But seriously, I'm intrigued. Tell me more about this journey of self-discovery. Roger: Well, it's actually the core idea behind “Leadership and Self-Deception” by the Arbinger Institute. The book introduces this concept of being "in the box," which is basically how we twist reality when we justify our actions and blame everyone else. It's like we stop seeing people as, well, “people” and start seeing them as obstacles, tools, or threats. Patricia: Hold on. You're saying my perceptions are messing up my leadership or relationships? Am I walking around seeing everyone as the enemy or something? Roger: Not exactly as enemies, but it happens subtly. The book explains how this "box" blocks genuine connection and accountability. And more importantly, how to recognize when we’re stuck in it and how to get out. Patricia: Okay, I’m following you about the "box", but how do we actually climb out of? I hope we've got more than just positive affirmations here! Roger: Absolutely! And that’s what makes this so interesting. We're going to unpack three key things: First, really understanding this "box" and how it distorts our judgment. Second, practical steps to break free and build better relationships. And third, how these changes can redefine leadership and teamwork. It’s not just theory; this is stuff you can actually “do”. Patricia: Alright, sounds like we're about to peel back the layers of the self-deception onion. I'm ready – as long as it doesn't make me cry.

Roger: Okay, let’s dive into this core concept of “the box.” It's more than just a catchy phrase; it’s really about understanding how we deceive ourselves. Basically, when you're “in the box,” you're in this mental space where your view of reality is skewed. You stop seeing people as individuals with their own thoughts and needs, and instead see them as objects—either obstacles, tools, or just irrelevant. Patricia: So, in essence, we're talking about dehumanizing people, but in a subtle way. Like, thinking, “My colleague is totally incompetent,” instead of, say, wondering if I clearly communicated expectations? Roger: Exactly! And because it's so subtle, we often don't even realize we're doing it. The book calls it self-deception because we trick ourselves into believing that our version of the situation is the truth. For example, a manager who thinks their team is lazy might only see missed deadlines and lack of motivation. They don't see how their own lack of direction or support might actually cause those problems. Patricia: So, this “box” is like one of those warped mirrors at a carnival. You think you're seeing reality, but it's twisted to make you feel better about yourself—or, even worse, to justify your frustration. Roger: Precisely! And it gets worse, because the justifications create a vicious cycle. When the manager sees their team as lazy, they might disengage, micromanage, or even lash out. And those actions, in turn, push the team to become even less engaged. That’s how self-deception really fuels conflict – it turns into this self-reinforcing loop. Patricia: Right, I get how this plays out at work. But can it apply outside of the workplace, too? Like, say, within families? Roger: Absolutely. The book gives an example of a woman named Kate and her son, Bryan. Kate feels frustrated because she's always trying to connect with her son, but their relationship feels distant. She thinks she's doing all of this for his benefit—being a good mom, you know? But when she takes a hard look at her own actions, she realizes she might be seeking validation more than truly connecting with Bryan. Patricia: So, she's not genuinely listening to him or trying to understand his needs—she's really just trying to feel good about herself as a parent? Roger: Exactly. And because she’s in the box, she can’t see that. All she sees is that her son is ungrateful because he’s not responding how she hopes he will. But the truth is, her own need for approval is driving the disconnect. It's always easier to blame someone else rather than face your own motives. Patricia: Wow. That's pretty harsh, isn't it? The box takes something that might seem like a good deed and twists it into something self-serving. Roger: Precisely. And the book goes into the psychology behind it, which is fascinating. At the heart of the concept is this thing called self-betrayal. That's when you act against what you know is right—like treating someone badly even though, deep down, you know they deserve better. Instead of owning up to it, you justify your actions. You create a story where they’re the problem, not you. Patricia: So, self-betrayal is what kicks off this downward spiral into the box. It's like the gateway drug to self-deception. Roger: That's a good way to put it! The book tells this story of a guy named Bud, who used to be a terrible boss. He admits he ignored his employees' needs and blamed them when things went wrong. But the kicker is—he wasn’t doing it intentionally. He justified his behavior by telling himself that other people’s faults were bigger than his. This kept him in the box, for years, until his relationships with his team—and his family—started falling apart. Patricia: Let me guess—Bud didn't realize what was happening until it was too late? Roger: Sadly, yes. That's one of the biggest dangers of being in the box. Because your perception is so warped, it feels impossible to recognize your own accountability. And without that awareness, conflicts get worse, trust erodes, and resentment builds. It’s why so many relationships, both personal and professional, develop toxic patterns. Patricia: So, being in the box doesn’t just mess with how you see people—it actively damages your relationships, your job performance, even your mental health. Roger: Absolutely. The effects are huge. The book even points out that this kind of mindset can affect entire organizations. Think about workplaces where blame is the default. Leaders in the box create mistrust, which kills productivity and innovation. Patricia: Sounds like being stuck in the box is just part of the human experience. Is there a solution here? Are we doomed to misjudge everyone forever? Roger: Not at all! The first step is acknowledging that this box exists and being willing to take an honest look at your own actions. Like, ask yourself, “Am I justifying my actions? Am I exaggerating other people’s flaws to make myself feel better?" Patricia: Sounds…unpleasant. But necessary, right? Roger: Definitely. Self-awareness can be uncomfortable, but it's the only way out of this cycle of blame and defensiveness. And once you start noticing those moments of self-deception, you can begin shifting your focus outward – seeing people as people again, not as obstacles. The transformation is really amazing, both personally and at work.

Roger: Recognizing this state is the very first step, you know? Once you realize how self-deception traps you in blame and those distorted perceptions, then you can actually start working toward breaking free. It’s not just some abstract goal either—it’s really a step-by-step journey that “starts” with questioning your own assumptions. Patricia: Okay, so we’ve ID’d the bad guy: it’s this self-justifying loop that keeps us stuck in the box. So what's the actual strategy for getting out? I'm guessing it's not as simple as just saying, “Oops, my bad. Let’s move on.” Roger: Oh, definitely not. Overcoming self-deception means we’ve got to address the root issues—and that starts with building self-awareness. It's about stepping back, taking a look at the big picture, and asking ourselves some tough questions. You know, like, “Are my actions and beliefs really in line with what I know is right?” Remember that case from the book about Tom, the manager? His turning point came when Bud straight up told him, “When you’re in the box, you’re mostly focused on yourself.” That really forced Tom to think about why he was so unhappy with his team and what his part was in the whole thing. Patricia: You know, it makes you wonder though, doesn't it? Why does it always take someone else to point this stuff out to us? Why couldn’t Tom just realize on his own that maybe he was the common thread in all his problems at work? Roger: Exactly. And that’s what makes self-deception so difficult to overcome. When you’re stuck in the box, your view of reality is …warped. You don't think, “Hey, I'm being unfair,” or “Maybe I’m the problem”; instead, you create these stories, these narratives, that justify your feelings, right? For Tom, it was just easier to believe his staff was lazy than to question how his own behavior—micromanaging, not offering them the support they needed—was actually fueling the whole issue. Self-awareness is hard because it means pausing, reflecting, and, yeah, admitting you might be wrong. Patricia: And that's probably why most of us just stay stuck in the box, right? No one's exactly jumping at the chance to admit they're wrong. So, what happens after you have that self-awareness moment, though? You can't just stop at, "Oops, my perspective was off.” Roger: No, exactly. Self-awareness is really just the first step. The next key is acknowledging something called self-betrayal. This happens when you act against your own sense of what's actually right. But instead of addressing that disconnect, you double down with justification, blaming others to protect your ego. Patricia: Okay, so let’s take that mom and son story—Kate and Bryan, right? She felt like she was acting out of love, but because she wasn’t really checking her deeper motives, she was really just feeding her own need for approval through her son. That’s self-betrayal, right? Roger: Exactly. And the real breakthrough for her came when she finally saw the role her own insecurities were playing in their strained relationship. Bud's question—“Are you more interested in him, or in his opinion of you?”—turned out to be a real wake-up call. By acknowledging her self-betrayal, she could then shift her focus from needing Bryan's validation to genuinely understanding him. Patricia: But let's be real, Roger, that kind of reflection isn't easy. It would take a lot for someone to admit that their “helpful” actions are actually… selfish. I mean, how do you even start to shift your perspective when you’re dealing with all that guilt? Roger: That’s such an important point, honestly. Shifting perspective isn't about, you know, wallowing in guilt; it's about actually taking a more human-centered approach to seeing others. Instead of seeing people as tools for your own validation or as obstacles, you start seeing them as fully human—people with their own challenges, their own feelings, their own motivations. And one of the most powerful examples in the book is Bud’s realization about his wife, Nancy. For years, he had framed her actions as inconsiderate—using that to justify his criticism and his resentment. But when he finally reflected on his own behavior, he realized he had been neglecting her emotional needs. Patricia: So, Bud's frustration wasn't really coming from Nancy being lazy or inconsiderate, but from him refusing to see her struggles? Roger: Exactly. And you know, that shift in perspective changed everything. Bud went from feeling superior and righteous to actually empathizing with her. And that's the beauty of all this, Patricia. When you step out of the box, you don't just see others differently—you become more compassionate, more patient, and way better at building trust. Patricia: It sounds simple when you put it like that, but I imagine seeing people as "fully human"–it takes practice, right? It's not like you can just flip a switch and, boom, you're suddenly viewing everyone you're mad at through rose-colored glasses. Roger: Right, it’s absolutely a practice, and that's where tools like self-checks and those honest conversations come in. It’s about actively breaking your habits of self-justification. Pause before you react. Ask yourself, "Am I blaming this person for something that I might be contributing to? Am I really listening here, or am I trapped in my own story about them?" Patricia: Okay, so you're building self-awareness, calling yourself out on self-betrayal, and practicing empathy. Got it. But what happens when you feel yourself starting to slip back into the box? Because you know, let’s be honest, we can’t all be saints 24/7. Roger: That’s true, it’s an ongoing process. The book emphasizes that breaking free isn't a one-time victory. It's about creating habits that help you course-correct before the self-deception really spirals out of control again. Tools like empathy exercises, journaling, even having an accountability partner can really help. And honest conversations are especially important—like the ones Bud had with Tom. Those dialogues aren’t always easy, but they're necessary to reveal those blind spots and keep you in line with your values. Patricia: So escape isn’t permanent, you're always at risk of falling back in. But I guess the more you commit to checking yourself, the better your relationships and, you know, even your leadership skills get. So how would you say that plays out in the real world? Roger: Great question. Take Tom’s leadership transformation, for instance. When he started building genuine connections with his team—taking an interest in their challenges, asking how he could support them—you know, the whole dynamic shifted. His team became more engaged, more collaborative, and more willing to take ownership. That’s really what happens when you start seeing people as individuals rather than just, like, obstacles or cogs. Accountability becomes a shared goal, not a blame game. Patricia: So, the takeaway is: step out of the box, see people as people, and—even if it’s uncomfortable—just keep doing the work. Sounds like a lot, but if it leads to stronger connections, I guess it's worth it. Roger: Completely worth it. Overcoming self-deception isn’t just about feeling good, ultimately it's about creating environments where trust, empathy, and teamwork thrive. And all that starts with recognizing your own role in the equation and committing to change, one honest interaction at a time.

Roger: So, with all these concepts we've been discussing, people can actually apply them to leadership and their team to change things for the better. Self-deception, which may feel very personal, has a huge effect on how you and your team work together. When people start noticing their biases and changing how they act, it can have a ripple effect that actually changes entire teams, even company cultures. Patricia: Okay, so, if I understand correctly, we’re zooming out from the individual to the big picture here, right? And by dismantling this “box,” we can take a dysfunctional organization and turn it into, I don’t know, some kind of collaboration and innovation wonderland? Roger: Absolutely! This is how individual changes can transform groups into successful teams. When leaders take responsibility for their actions and see their teams as partners, not just tools, things “really” begin to shift. Blame is replaced with trust, which improves communication, and helps organizations actually achieve their goals. Patricia: So, we’re talking about changing the entire culture of an organization? That sounds…huge. Where do you even start with something that ambitious? Roger: It starts right at the very top—with leadership that sets an example for change. Take accountability, for instance. Accountability isn’t just about pointing fingers or getting results. It’s rooted in trust and leaders being honest about their own shortcomings. When leaders admit their mistakes and take responsibility, boom, that’s the tone that sets the bar for the entire company. Patricia: Okay, so, instead of yelling and blaming everyone else when goals aren’t met, a good leader says, "Hey, that’s on me." But isn't there a risk they’ll look weak or, even worse, the team will stop taking them seriously? Roger: That's a common fear, but actually, the opposite is often true. When leaders show humility, it builds trust. The book mentions a high-tech firm struggling with departments not working well together. Their CEO held workshops on how leadership could turn their “blind spots” into something positive. Patricia: Let me guess—these weren’t your typical trust-fall exercises? Roger: Not at all. Leaders looked at their assumptions about the organization and each other. It wasn’t about calling each other out but calling themselves out. They had feedback loops, saying things like, "Here’s where I messed up, and here’s what I’m working on to get better." It changed how they communicated. Patricia: And the end results? Because all this warm-and-fuzzy stuff has to lead to something, right? Roger: It did. Productivity shot up, and employee engagement got way better. The organization became cooperative and innovative. Accountability became a part of their culture, and, more importantly, it was constructive and focused on learning from mistakes. Patricia: Okay, you’ve convinced me about accountability. But, what about onboarding new people into this kind of culture? How do you ensure new hires bring the right attitude? Roger: That’s a great question! Some companies are integrating these ideas right into their hiring process. The book gives an example of a logistics firm that had applicants read chapters of Leadership and Self-Deception before their final interviews. It was about seeing if they were open to self-reflection and teamwork. Patricia: Wait, they made candidates do homework? I'm torn between thinking that's brilliant or just mean. Roger: It worked! During the interviews, candidates shared what they'd learned about avoiding the box and what they would do to make their team better. One person admitted that they dismissed other people’s ideas too quickly in the past. That type of honesty became a key part of hiring for the company! Patricia: So, the hiring process becomes a kind of emotional intelligence test, and anyone too stuck in their own way is weeded out? Smart. But what about current employees? Can you change a team full of cynics into collaborators? Roger: Definitely, though it takes work. A nonprofit had workshops to align their teams with those goals. They had internal conflict; teams weren’t communicating well. During the workshops, individuals thought about how they may have made things worse. It helped them face their own way of thinking and change how they worked together. Patricia: I can see how that would be both awkward and powerful. What happens when some people don’t take responsibility for their part in the mess? Roger: That's expected, which is why these changes take time. The nonprofit focused on psychological safety – making sure people felt secure admitting mistakes without fear. Over time, even the skeptics improved because they saw real results happening in how teams worked. Patricia: So, accountability and psychological safety go hand in hand? One creates the environment where people can be honest, and the other says it's okay to take responsibility? Roger: Exactly. When both are there, moving to the big picture of everyone being responsible becomes easier. The book stresses that success is about the team sharing a common goal. Patricia: Wait, I thought competition drove innovation? Aren’t we supposed to be encouraging people to stand out and do their best? Roger: Competition is healthy, but too much leads to toxic environments, like in the high-tech firm we talked about. When people are only focused on individual success, they’re less likely to assist or work together. That’s why collective responsibility is important. It changes the focus from "What did I accomplish?" to "What did we accomplish, and how did I help?" Patricia: Sounds like a significant shift. It’s no longer about your own story but ensuring the entire team levels up. Roger: Exactly. And that builds trust and morale. In the book, there’s the fictional company Zagrum. When Tom shifted from an "in-the-box" leadership to collective goals, it gave energy back to the workforce. He reorganized project teams, encouraged peer mentoring, and celebrated team wins instead of just rewarding stars. Patricia: So, his leadership changed from "top-down orders" to more of a partnership with his team? Roger: Yes! It didn’t just make performance better, but it created deeper connections between employees. Everyone felt like they were contributing to something bigger than themselves. That’s how powerful these principles are when used at an organizational level. Patricia: Alright, so it’s all about the long game. Show accountability, build trust, and align everyone around common goals. Sounds doable—though definitely not easy. Roger: It's not easy, but it's worth it! When leaders commit to these changes, organizations can become places where people truly thrive. By transforming how we see others and how we work together, we reach a new level of collaboration and success.

Roger: Okay, let’s bring this home. So, today we really dug into how self-deception keeps us stuck “in the box,” right? It messes with how we see things and kicks off this blame game that hurts our relationships and even messes with how productive we are. But, remember, the key to getting out of this mess starts with knowing ourselves. We need to question what we think is true, face when we've let ourselves down, and own up to our part in the problems we face. Patricia: And it's not just about, you know, personal growth, either. We talked about how these ideas can spread outwards. They help leaders build trust, make sure people are accountable, and get everyone working together better within their organizations. It’s not enough to just look at yourself; you have to use that self-awareness to change how you deal with people. Roger: So, here's a little food for thought for everyone listening: the next time you’re about to blame someone else for something, just take a moment. Ask yourself, “Am I in the box right now?” Have I been making excuses for myself, or not really seeing how I might be contributing to the issue? Just shifting how you look at things, even a little bit, can really change everything. Patricia: Yeah, and when you do step out of that box, get ready for things to change around you. Stronger relationships, better teamwork… and, who knows, maybe even a bit less drama during team meetings. Roger: Totally. Self-deception can be really sneaky, but having the guts to question it might just be the most powerful thing you can do. Until our next podcast, stay curious and keep growing!