Thomas: Hey everyone, welcome back. Today we're tackling a really crucial, and frankly, a bit disturbing topic: the inner workings of fascism. And why now? Well, understanding how it operates might be the very first step in preventing it from taking hold. Grace: Exactly, Thomas. Fascism isn’t just some dusty history lesson from World War II. It's a playbook that’s being dusted off and put back into use, time and again. Ever notice how you seem to be hearing that “us versus them” rhetoric a lot lately? Thomas: Spot on. That's why Jason Stanley’s book, How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them, feels so incredibly relevant right now. He really dissects the strategic methods that fascists use to undermine democracies. Think of it as a manual that exposes exactly how fear, misinformation, and division are manufactured and the damage they cause. Grace: And Stanley doesn't just raise the alarm without providing the details. He walks you through the whole grim toolbox: fabricated glorious pasts, lies masquerading as truth, and hierarchical structures designed to turn people against each other. Spoiler alert: It's all pretty dark. Thomas: So that's exactly what we're going to break down today. We’re going to dive into three core strategies that are fundamental to fascist movements. First, the myth of the golden past – why fascists are so obsessed with it, and how they use it to create divisions and exclude people. Grace: Then we're moving onto propaganda – how they twist reality to support their narrative and why so many people buy into it. And it's not just about the message itself, but how it’s delivered. Thomas: And finally, we’ll look at the hierarchies they impose – those strict, rigid systems that dehumanize and marginalize entire groups while claiming to protect “order”. Grace: Think of it as peeling back the layers of an onion, or maybe a particularly nasty fruitcake. Each layer we peel back reveals something even more rotten at the core. Thomas: Exactly. So today, we’re not just covering the what, but the why and the how, too. Ready to get started? Let's jump in.

Thomas: So, Grace, about these “beginnings,” let's jump right into one of fascism's core ideas: the “mythic past.” Honestly, it's so effective, it's scary. I can walk us through what that actually entails. Grace: Please do. I'm always fascinated by how these things take hold. Thomas: Okay, so at its heart, the “mythic past” is really about creating a fictionalized version of history. Think of an imaginary era where everyone was supposedly perfect, united, and, you know, morally pure. The kicker? This “golden age” is usually made up or incredibly selective about what it chooses to remember. Fascists love using this nostalgia to contrast it with today’s complexities, painting modern society as chaotic and corrupt. Grace: Ah, okay, so it's like photoshopping history, right? All the ugly bits—the injustices, the messiness—just vanish. Poof! What's left is this shiny, idealized picture that, of course, perfectly lines up with their agenda. Thomas: Exactly! And it's more than just tweaking the history books; it's playing with emotions. They present this golden age as something that was stolen, usually by external forces or something "unnatural". People then start feeling victimized “and” righteous at the same time. It's not just nostalgia; it's a recipe for anger, and a desire to find someone to blame. Grace: Which, surprise, leads to finding convenient scapegoats, right? Immigrants, minorities, activists – suddenly there’s this “them” to rally against. Give me some real-world examples, Thomas. Whose done this, and how did it work? Thomas: Well, a classic one is Mussolini's Italy. His whole regime was obsessed with the Roman Empire, presenting it as the pinnacle of Italian greatness. He used this romanticized, idealized version to create a sense of historical continuity. It was as if his fascist policies were just a natural extension of Roman strength, discipline, and order. The public works, propaganda... all framed Italians as the direct heirs to this amazing past. Grace: I see. So you've got this whole population soaking in this carefully constructed nostalgia, admiring the statues, marching under arches, feeling proud and traditional. Meanwhile, Mussolini's busy crushing dissent and trampling on human rights. It's a slick distraction, isn't it? Thomas: Absolutely. All that supposed Roman glory was used to distract from and justify the real-time authoritarianism, violence, and repression. The mythic past wasn’t just about reminiscing; it was about consolidating power “now”. Grace: It's not just a history lesson, either. Fast forward to 2016, and what’s the slogan? Make America Great Again. Now, I’ll just say it - that's genius, right? Pure, concentrated nostalgia. So, Thomas, which specific past are we talking about, exactly? Thomas: That’s the genius of it – it’s deliberately vague, which makes it even “more” effective. Supporters could project “any” version of “greatness” they wanted onto it. For some, it might have been the post-war boom; for others, maybe a return to traditional power structures where white, male dominance wasn't challenged. The slogan “didn't” define what greatness was, but it absolutely played on existing anxieties about societal change. Grace: And by “societal change,” we're talking about progress, right? Civil rights, gender equality... the very things the mythic past conveniently airbrushes out. This “great again” message wasn't just about nostalgia; it was about rolling back those gains, reinforcing hierarchies, promoting traditional roles. It all links back to that selective memory you mentioned. Thomas: Exactly, and that selective memory erases so much of the real story. Just look at Viktor Orbán in Hungary. His talk about preserving Europe’s “Christian roots” taps into a vision of a pure, unified cultural past that was never disrupted. But his policies? They're squarely aimed at excluding outsiders–targeting immigrants, undermining LGBTQ+ rights, and chipping away at democracy. Grace: All under the guise of protecting “tradition”, right? I mean, it’s incredible. These leaders aren’t reviving a past that ever really existed; they’re manufacturing one to suit their needs. And people fall for it, even when the details are shaky. Thomas: Because it’s not about facts. Mussolini said myths don’t have to be real, they just have to “feel” real. Emotion trumps evidence, especially when you throw in fear and insecurity. Grace: Right. And that fear component is key, isn't it? These myths tend to flourish when things are uncertain – during economic downturns, big cultural shifts, political instability. When people feel lost, they grasp at the past, no matter how fake. Thomas: And that’s when the mythic past becomes truly dangerous. It’s not just harmless longing. It defines who belongs within this golden picture -- and who doesn't. That push for homogeneity actively marginalizes immigrants, minorities, anyone seen as a threat to this imagined "order." Grace: Exactly. Like Orbán's policies, or even the anti-immigrant sentiment we saw during Brexit. The whole narrative was about “taking back control." Control over borders, control over identity. It's the same mythic nostalgia that paints progress as chaos and diversity as decline. Thomas: And the costs can be incredibly high. Frantz Fanon – who critiqued colonialism and fascism – really nailed it when he said these cultural myths justify exclusion, violence, and oppression, all in the name of preserving "tradition." It divides communities and can escalate to systemic harm. Grace: Okay, so what’s the takeaway here? Should we just debunk these myths into oblivion, or is there a bigger picture? Thomas: Fact-checking is crucial, but we also need to build a more inclusive and shared memory. We challenge these myths not just by disproving them, but by filling the void with real, diverse, equitable stories of what society actually “is” and what it “can” be. That’s how we dismantle this nostalgia that’s been weaponized to divide us. Grace: Yeah, that makes sense – almost like taking some of the photoshop off that airbrushed photo, right? Once you see the omissions and distortions, that idealized past loses a lot of its appeal.

Thomas: We’ve discussed the manipulation of history, now let’s delve into the very mechanisms that keep these narratives alive. We're talking about propaganda and unreality. This is really crucial—it gets into how propaganda actually creates these alternate realities, looks at examples from history all the way to today, and really, the damage it does to any kind of democratic discussion. Grace: Propaganda, yeah. The Swiss Army knife of dictators, right? It's amazing, and kind of scary, how it doesn't just twist the facts but can completely wreck our shared sense of what’s real. So, where do we even start, Thomas? What’s behind its power? Thomas: It's all about playing on our emotions, Grace. Fascist propaganda builds stories that connect with us emotionally and skips right over logic. It breaks the world down into simple black and white choices: good versus evil, pure versus tainted, us versus them. And that’s tempting because it gives us easy answers when things are unclear, a sense of belonging, and even a feeling of moral purpose, even if it’s based on something false. Grace: So, forget the head, aim for the heart. And I guess truth becomes…optional, then? Thomas: Completely optional. Propaganda lives in what Stanley calls “unreality.” That's when the lines between what's true and what's made up get so blurry that people just can't tell the difference anymore. It’s a conscious effort to erode the truth, which creates the perfect environment for conspiracy theories and myths to take root. Grace: Unreality—so, it's like a mass suspension of disbelief. Once people buy in, their perceptions are up for grabs. So, Thomas, how do fascists actually make this happen? What are their go-to strategies? Thomas: There are three big ones: simplify and repeat, demonize outsiders, and push conspiracy theories. Let’s start with simplifying and repeating. Fascists will take complicated problems and boil them down into catchy slogans—think “Make America Great Again," or “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer” back in Nazi Germany. These phrases get hammered into our brains until, just by hearing them over and over, they start to feel true. Grace: It’s almost like hypnotism, isn't it? Even if you know better, you start thinking in those sound bites because they're everywhere – on billboards, social media, in speeches. It’s like advertising, but for something truly evil. Thomas: Exactly. And fascist slogans aren’t just advertising. They’re moral calls to action that bypass your brain and hit you right in the gut. Repeat something enough, and it becomes automatic—even if it's a lie. Grace: Like “law and order,” for example. Which, let's be honest, started making us think of anything but equal justice. That slogan alone helped Nixon tap into white middle-class fears, linking civil rights protests to riots and chaos. Okay, Thomas, I need to hear about this second tool – demonizing outsiders. How do they pull that off? Thomas: It’s about finding an enemy. Propaganda paints specific groups—immigrants, minorities, intellectuals—as the reason for society's problems. They're dehumanized through stereotypes and fearmongering. For example, Nazi propaganda made it seem like Jewish people were a threat to Germany's very existence, blaming them for everything from the economy to cultural decline. The “outsider” becomes the face of chaos, creating a common enemy that rallies people together under the promise of “order.” Grace: And that order, of course, just happens to need an authoritarian government to enforce it. How convenient. Today, you see populists in Europe and the U.S. focusing on refugees or immigrants, saying they’re bringing crime and decay. The slogans change, but the tactic stays the same. Thomas: Exactly. In Hungary, Viktor Orbán blames migrants for undermining Christian values while simultaneously dismantling democratic processes in the name of protecting those values. It’s a classic bait and switch: create fears to justify taking power. Grace: Making up fear is one thing, but here’s what I find truly mind-blowing: the conspiracy theories. I mean, nothing sounds more like “unreality” than these stories about shadowy elites secretly “controlling everything.” Why do these stories grab people so effectively? Thomas: Because they tap into distrust and uncertainty. Conspiracies give people easy-to-understand explanations for complicated social problems, and they shift blame from those in power to imagined secret groups. Look at the “stolen election” claims in the U.S. after 2020. Even with zero proof, those lies took off like wildfire. That’s not just random misinformation; it’s active propaganda aimed at undermining confidence in democratic systems. Grace: And we all saw where that led – January 6th. When misinformation turns into unreality, people start acting based on myth instead of fact. It’s scary how effective it can be. Thomas: It really is. And it’s essential to grasp the consequences. Propaganda isn’t just about controlling what people think; it actively destroys trust. Shared truths—the foundation of democratic conversation—break down into fragmented realities. People retreat into their own separate bubbles, and society becomes incredibly divided. Authoritarians thrive in this chaos because it weakens any opposition. Grace: And let’s not forget who gets hurt the most in this shattered world. Marginalized communities—the very people propaganda demonizes—feel the worst of it. Once they’re branded as “threats,” discrimination and violence don’t just rise; they become acceptable. Thomas: Absolutely. Think about Nazi Germany: the constant dehumanization of Jewish people paved the way for the Holocaust. Or Nixon’s “law and order” rhetoric criminalized Black communities, setting the stage for mass incarceration. Propaganda doesn’t just twist reality; it sets the stage for systematic oppression. Grace: Okay, Thomas, but what do we do? How do you even fight something this widespread? Just fact-checking won't cut it—people dismiss facts when they think it’s all “fake news.” Thomas: The answer is in rebuilding trust and encouraging critical thinking. Education helps –teaching people how to spot propaganda and analyze media for themselves. But more than that, we need to share real stories—diverse, inclusive narratives that bring people together instead of setting them against each other. Grace: So it’s about fighting bad stories not just with arguments, but with better, truer stories. Makes sense. And maybe somebody ought to turn off the microphone attached to some of these propaganda machines, too. Wouldn't hurt, right?

Thomas: With reality itself feeling so unstable, we're digging into how fascism specifically attacks the very institutions that encourage critical thinking. Today, Grace, we’re focusing on hierarchy and social divisions. It's a key component of fascist ideology, and there's so much to unpack – how we rank human worth, how fear and anger get used to maintain power, and how those divisions can infect every part of society. Grace: Exactly, we're getting right to the heart of how oppression is structured. So, here's what we're going to talk about today: first, how these social ladders are built – what decides who’s "on top" and why. Then, a bit of history, because seeing these ideas in action really drives the point home. And finally, we'll talk about the real-world impact, because this isn’t just theory; it destroys lives. Thomas, do you want to get us started with the basics? What exactly are these "hierarchical structures" we're talking about? Thomas: Basically, fascist hierarchies are all about creating a strict social order where some groups are seen as naturally better than others. These hierarchies are usually based on things like race, gender, and class. The group in power gets to decide what's "normal" or "right" – so they say things like positions of power and authority are theirs by default. Meanwhile, other groups are pushed down and seen as "lesser," and this is presented as necessary to keep things "stable." Grace: So, it's like ranking people, but the rules are rigged from the start. I guess this isn't just random, then? There's a strategy behind building these hierarchies, right? Thomas: Absolutely. It’s a deliberate tactic. One key idea is to present these divisions as "natural." It might be disguised as tradition, or even given a fake scientific justification, but the aim is always to convince people that questioning the hierarchy will lead to chaos. Fascist ideologies sell the idea that social order depends on keeping these divisions in place, no matter the human cost. Grace: And anyone who dares to challenge that order becomes a "threat" to stability, I presume? Thomas: Exactly. That's where the second tactic – fear – comes in. Equality isn't seen as progress; it's presented as a danger. The story becomes: "If we give rights to that group, it'll mess up the whole system. Chaos will ensue!" That fear then creates resentment and makes people willing to defend a system that actually hurts them. Grace: It's amazing how progress can be twisted into the villain. But do these hierarchies actually help leaders stay in power? Is there a practical benefit beyond just pushing a certain ideology? Thomas: Absolutely, they do. Leaders use these hierarchies to divide people and strengthen their own control. One method is scapegoating – blaming certain groups for economic problems, crime, or cultural decline. It takes the focus away from the real problems or the failures of the leadership. Then, there's the false idea of competition, where any gain for one group is presented as a loss for the dominant group. And lastly, they normalize violence as a way to maintain this "order." Grace: Okay, give me an example. Let's make this less abstract. Thomas: Okay, the most well-known example is Nazi Germany. Nazi ideology created a racial hierarchy with Aryans at the top and Jewish people—along with others like Romani people and the LGBTQ+ community—at the bottom. Anti-Semitic propaganda portrayed Jewish people as outsiders undermining German society. This led to the Nuremberg Laws, which took away Jewish people's citizenship and made their exclusion official. This dehumanization eventually led to the Holocaust, the genocide of over six million Jewish people. Grace: Right, and all of this was disguised as a way to fix things. Hitler didn’t just target a group, he sold the idea of cleaning up society by going back to some made-up racial order. Thomas: Exactly. That’s key. The Nazis presented their actions as necessary – not cruel, but restorative. That’s why it was so effective. When a whole population is taught to see a group as dangerous and less than human, horrific violence becomes normal. Grace: And the scary thing is, we see echoes of this today, even if it's not always on the same scale. Take Viktor Orbán in Hungary. He's created a hierarchy that favors traditional Christian heterosexual families while pushing LGBTQ+ people to the margins and promoting anti-immigrant ideas. These aren’t just random acts – they’re part of a bigger story that paints certain groups as threats to the culture. Thomas: Orbán shows how hierarchy and nationalism can get mixed together. He says traditional gender roles are essential to Hungary’s survival—ending gender studies programs, pushing for larger families to combat “population decline,” and linking these things to the preservation of Hungarian identity. By doing this, he reinforces the idea of a patriarchal society and marginalizes anyone who doesn’t fit in. Grace: It's like creating a social contract, but the fine print says, "This only applies to 'good,' traditional people. Everyone else – you're the problem." Thomas: Exactly. And these kinds of policies have serious consequences. They not only isolate marginalized communities, but they also undermine basic democratic principles. Hierarchies like this aren’t just social ideas; they infiltrate institutions too – education, healthcare, the legal system. Grace: Which means they’re not just bad ideas—they’re ways to keep people oppressed. Take the United States. Look at how class hierarchies are reinforced. Wealth is presented as moral virtue, poverty as a personal failing. And who benefits from that story? Certainly not those struggling to make ends meet. Thomas: It’s a loophole that keeps power concentrated. The wealthy maintain their privilege while groups facing systemic barriers—like racial minorities or women—struggle to get ahead. Historically, this thinking has been used to justify policies that worsen inequality—like redlining, wage suppression, or unequal access to education. Grace: And when those barriers are challenged? More fear-mongering. Resentment goes through the roof because we're back to that myth of competition. It reminds me of the backlash to affirmative action—people are convinced it’s a zero-sum game, where someone else’s opportunities take away from their own. Thomas: And that's so wrong. It not only deepens divisions but also stops us from talking about how to improve things for everyone. Instead of seeing systemic reform as beneficial to all, people cling to unequal hierarchies because they think it’s the only way to protect what little they have. Grace: Here’s the crazy thing – those at the top don’t need that kind of "protection." They use these tactics to distract from their own hold on power. It's a distraction, and we keep falling for it. Thomas: And these hierarchies normalize violence and reduce empathy. They break societies apart, turning communities into enemies. And the cost? Everything from everyday discrimination to horrific genocides. Grace: So, what can we do to fight back? Because from what you're saying, dismantling these hierarchies is about more than just changing ideas – it’s about changing how people see each other completely. Thomas: It starts with education and building empathy. We have to teach people to recognize narratives that scapegoat certain groups and question the idea that inequality is natural. Above all, we have to amplify the voices of those who’ve been silenced by these systems. Grace: Makes sense. Sharing real, diverse stories is the best way to fight this kind of exclusion. It doesn’t just challenge the scapegoating – it offers a vision of a world where we don’t have to tear each other down to get ahead.

Thomas: So, tying everything together, we've laid out three interconnected tactics of fascism: the mythic past, propaganda, and social hierarchies. We've seen how these tools can “really” twist reality, create divisions within societies, and, you know, justify exclusion in ways that feel, well, a little too familiar today. Grace: Exactly, from Mussolini's Rome to, say, Orbán's policies on immigration, what we are talking about isn't just history, right? It's an active playbook. Fascism seems to flourish by reshaping history, eroding any shared understanding, and convincing people that, well, some form of domination is only natural. Thomas: But here’s the good news: Recognizing these tactics is the first step toward dismantling them. We can fight the mythic past with narratives that are truthful and inclusive. We can challenge propaganda, sure, by promoting critical thinking and media literacy. And, of course, we can dismantle hierarchies by deciding not to see equality as a threat. Grace: You can’t get a much clearer call to action than that. The crux is breaking down the "us versus them" mentality and refusing to be a pawn in structures that promote only division. Thomas: Precisely. Fascism thrives on fear and distrust. But, you know, when we actively build bridges instead of walls—through education, empathy, and “really”, strong solidarity—it starts to lose its power. As dark as this topic can seem, the solutions are right here in our hands. Grace: So for everyone tuning in, never stop asking those hard questions, and keep challenging any narrative that aims to set us against each other. And, more importantly, keep imagining, what could a truly equitable world look like? Thomas: Right, because ultimately, resistance isn’t just about opposing something; it’s about actively building something better. We hope today’s discussion has given you some helpful tools to understand—and face head-on—the politics of “us versus them.”