Nova: Are you a salesperson? Most of us would say 'no,' right? The word can feel a little… icky. We picture a fast-talking caricature trying to push something we don't need. But what if I told you that the skills of a great salesperson are the secret keys to better leadership, stronger relationships, and unshakable self-confidence? What if you're already selling every single day, you just don't call it that? That's the provocative idea from Cindy McGovern's book, 'Every Job Is a Sales Job,' and it’s a total game-changer.

Gedija Tshwelesa: It really is a powerful reframing. It takes the concept out of the boardroom and puts it right into our daily lives.

Nova: Exactly! And that’s why I’m so thrilled to have you here, Gedija. With your focus on leadership, empathy, and self-confidence, you're the perfect person to unpack this with. Today, we're going to tackle this from two different angles. First, we'll explore the powerful mindset shift of seeing yourself as an 'unofficial salesperson,' no matter your job title.

Gedija Tshwelesa: I love that, the 'unofficial salesperson.'

Nova: Right? Then, we'll break down the practical art of the 'ask'—how to build the trust necessary to confidently get what you want and need, both at work and in life. So, let's start with that big, bold claim: everyone is a salesperson. Gedija, when you first hear that, what's your gut reaction?

Gedija Tshwelesa: Honestly, my initial reaction is a bit of resistance, just like you said. I think of someone trying to sell me a car. But as an analytical thinker, my second thought is… what if it’s true? What does that actually mean for someone who, for example, works in tech or is focused on creative innovation? It's a fascinating premise.

Nova: It is! And the book gives this great example of the author's own journey. She was a college professor of communication, comfortable in academia, and thought sales was the last thing she'd ever do. Then she applies for a 'consultant' job at an insurance company, with zero experience. During the phone interview, she learns the real title is 'sales management consultant.'

Gedija Tshwelesa: Oh, the classic bait-and-switch.

Nova: Totally. But instead of hanging up, she uses all her academic communication skills—mirroring the interviewer's language, actively listening—to convince the woman to give her an in-person interview. She gets the job, and later her boss moves her into a pure sales role. And that's her lightbulb moment: she realizes the skills she used to get the job, to sell herself into a role she wasn't qualified for, were the exact same skills the best salespeople use. She was a salesperson all along.

Gedija Tshwelesa: That’s a powerful origin story. She didn't learn a new skill; she just re-contextualized a skill she already had. That’s a huge mindset shift.

Nova: It's everything. The book calls it the "Blue Car Syndrome." You know, you buy a blue car, and suddenly you see blue cars everywhere? They were always there, but now you're aware of them. Once you realize you're selling, you start seeing these 'unofficial sales' everywhere.

Nova: And this brings me to one of my favorite stories in the book, which I think you'll appreciate, Gedija. It’s about a guy named Ben, an HVAC technician. It's the first 95-degree day of summer in D. C., and the author's air conditioning breaks. She calls for a repair, and Ben shows up.

Gedija Tshwelesa: A true hero in that moment.

Nova: No kidding! So Ben inspects the AC unit and gives her the repair options. But while he's there, the author casually mentions, "Ugh, and on top of this, my gas furnace has been leaking all winter." Now, a lot of technicians would just nod, fix the AC, and leave. That's the job they were called for.

Gedija Tshwelesa: Right, they'd stick to the ticket.

Nova: But not Ben. He hears this, and instead of ignoring it, he says, "Do you mind if I take a look?" He inspects the furnace, finds the problem, and explains how he can fix that too. He ends up securing two profitable jobs instead of one. The author becomes a loyal customer and recommends him to all her neighbors. Ben wasn't a 'salesperson.' He was a technician. But he listened.

Gedija Tshwelesa: That’s it, right there. He listened. You know, Nova, as someone passionate about innovation and empathy, what stands out to me is that Ben's approach is the very essence of user-centric design. He's not just fixing the immediate bug; he's listening for the unstated need. The author didn't call and say, "I need my furnace inspected." She expressed a frustration.

Nova: A pain point.

Gedija Tshwelesa: Exactly, a pain point. And Ben identified it and offered a solution. He wasn't selling a furnace repair; he was selling peace of mind, reliability, and a solution to a problem the homeowner didn't even know how to ask to have solved. That's not being a pushy salesperson. That's being an empathetic problem-solver. In the tech world, we'd call that identifying a core user need and delivering value. He just happened to do it with a wrench instead of code.

Nova: I love that connection. He delivered value. And the book is full of these examples: the lawyer selling a jury on their client's innocence, the coder selling their team on a new design, the manager selling their team on a vision. It's all about persuasion and influence.

Gedija Tshwelesa: It makes you realize that the most effective people in any field are the ones who are good at this 'unofficial' selling. They're the ones whose ideas get heard, whose projects get funded, and whose teams are motivated. It's a fundamental leadership competency, just disguised under a different name.

Nova: That's such a great way to put it—he sold a solution. And to sell that solution, he had to do something many of us fear: he had to. He had to offer the service. This brings us to our second big idea: the anatomy of the 'ask' and why trust is the non-negotiable first step.

Nova: The book's five-step formula is really about selling in a nice way, a give-and-take. It's not about manipulation. And the whole process hinges on Step 3: Establish Trust, and Step 4: Ask for What You Want. To really see this in action, the book gives these two brilliant, contrasting stories.

Gedija Tshwelesa: The successes and the failures. That's where the learning is.

Nova: Exactly. So, the first story is about a real estate agent. This guy was great at listing homes, great at marketing, great at showing properties. He did everything right... except for one thing. He would show a house to a couple, they'd love it, and then he'd just... wait. He never said the words, "So, are you ready to make an offer?" He never asked for the sale.

Gedija Tshwelesa: He was waiting for them to make the first move?

Nova: Precisely. He assumed they would just volunteer. But they were waiting for him, the professional, to guide them to the next step. Because he never asked, he rarely closed a deal. He eventually failed out of the business. He had a 100% failure rate on the most critical step.

Gedija Tshwelesa: Wow. That’s painful to hear because you can feel the missed opportunity. He did all the work and then stumbled at the finish line because of fear, or maybe a misconception about his role.

Nova: It's a perfect example of how not asking is a guaranteed 'no.' Now, let's contrast that with the story of Pauline. Pauline is a fantastic employee who feels she's underpaid by about $7,500. She goes to her boss to ask for a raise. Her boss listens and says, "Pauline, you're right, you deserve it. But money is incredibly tight this year. I just can't do a big raise like that right now."

Gedija Tshwelesa: Okay, so that's a 'no.' Or at least a 'no for now.' This is where most people would get discouraged and walk away.

Nova: This is the critical moment. But Pauline doesn't get defensive. She to her boss's constraint. She hears "money is tight." So, instead of giving up, she comes back with a new proposal. She says, "I understand. What if we did a staggered plan? A small raise this year, a bigger one next year, and another the year after, for a total of $12,000 over three years? And in exchange, I'll sign a contract promising not to look for another job for those three years."

Gedija Tshwelesa: That is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Nova: Isn't it? The boss is thrilled. He gets to keep his star employee, he solves his budget problem for the current year, and Pauline not only gets her raise but ends up with even more than she originally asked for. It was a total win-win.

Gedija Tshwelesa: We have two people here, the real estate agent and Pauline. Both wanted something, but only one got it. From a leadership and self-confidence standpoint, the fundamental difference is their perception of value and permission. The real estate agent was waiting for permission that was never going to come. He didn't feel he had the right to ask, so he abdicated his role.

Nova: He gave his power away.

Gedija Tshwelesa: Completely. Pauline, on the other hand, operated from a place of value. She knew her worth, but she also had the empathy to hear and understand her boss's problem. Her 'ask' wasn't a demand; it was a collaborative proposal. She essentially said, "I have a problem, and you have a problem. Let's solve them together." That's not just a negotiation tactic; that's an act of leadership. It’s building a bridge instead of a wall. And it stems from a deep self-confidence that says, "My value is worth finding a creative solution for."

Nova: A collaborative proposal. That's the perfect phrase for it. She established trust by showing she heard him, and that made her 'ask' feel like a partnership.

Gedija Tshwelesa: And it removes the 'ick' factor you mentioned earlier. She wasn't being greedy or pushy. She was being a strategic partner. That's a lesson anyone in a leadership position, or aspiring to be, needs to internalize. Your requests become more powerful when they also solve someone else's problem.

Nova: That is so well said. So, when we boil it all down, it really comes back to two core ideas from the book. First, we need to embrace the mindset that we're all 'selling' our value every day, and that's a good thing. It’s about influence, not manipulation.

Gedija Tshwelesa: It's about effective communication.

Nova: Yes! And second, the most effective way to do that is by building a foundation of trust—really listening and being empathetic—and then having the courage to make the 'ask.'

Gedija Tshwelesa: Exactly. And it doesn't have to be this huge, scary thing. The book talks about 'life sales'—negotiating with a partner, asking a friend for a favor, even getting your kids to do their homework. It’s all the same muscle.

Nova: So what’s a practical way for us to start exercising that muscle?

Gedija Tshwelesa: I think the challenge for all of us is to find one small, low-stakes moment this week. Maybe you want to try a different restaurant than your partner, or you need a colleague to review something for you. Instead of hinting or hoping they'll offer, just try practicing the steps. Acknowledge them, maybe offer something in return—"If you have time to look at this, I can cover for you on Friday"—and then politely and directly ask for what you want. See what happens. It's a skill, and like any skill, we build it through practice, not just theory.

Nova: A perfect, practical takeaway. Start small, build the confidence, and see how it changes your interactions. Gedija, thank you for these incredible insights and for helping us reframe 'sales' into something so empowering.

Gedija Tshwelesa: It was my pleasure, Nova. It's a conversation that I think can genuinely help people build the confidence they're looking for.