Alex: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the show! Today, we're tackling something that could “really” change how you see every single meal. I mean, seriously, did you ever think your dinner plate could actually be a weapon against disease? Michelle: Wait a minute, Alex. Are you saying my kitchen is secretly a pharmacy? That's a pretty big statement. Alex: It sounds wild, but it's more than just a hunch—it's science! Dr. William W. Li wrote this amazing book, “Eat to Beat Disease”, and it basically shows how food isn't just fuel. It actually supercharges five natural defense systems in your body: things like angiogenesis, regeneration, your gut microbiome, DNA protection, and even your immunity. Michelle: Five defense systems? That sounds like a team of superheroes guarding my insides. So, like, is broccoli the equivalent of Iron Man in this scenario? Alex: In a way, yes! Dr. Li uses this "5 × 5 × 5 Framework" to explain it all simply: five defense systems, five key foods to boost each one, and five easy ways to add them to your meals. It’s like a real-life health cheat code. Michelle: Okay, so it’s not just about blindly eating mountains of kale. There's actual research showing “how” this stuff works? Alex: Absolutely! Today, we’re going to break down these hidden systems that are constantly working to keep you healthy. We’ll also explore how common foods like dark chocolate and green tea have serious disease-fighting powers, almost like pharmaceuticals! Michelle: Alright, but I’m going to need a practical plan that doesn't involve me spending days making homemade kimchi. Alex: No fermenting expertise required! We’ll also go over Dr. Li’s simple, five-step eating plan that anyone can follow, whether you’re a gourmet chef or just trying to navigate the grocery store. And finally, we'll look at the bigger picture: how viewing food as medicine could change our personal choices, and maybe even transform healthcare itself. Michelle: So, it seems we’re not just discussing “what” to eat, but also “why”, “how”, and what impact this all could have on the future of our well-being. I’m in. Where do we start?

Alex: Okay, Michelle, let's dive in. At the heart of it all are the Five Health Defense Systems. Dr. Li identifies them as angiogenesis, regeneration, the microbiome, DNA protection, and immunity. Each one is essential, and they all work together! What’s really amazing is that what we eat has a huge impact on how well these systems function. Michelle: So, if I understand correctly, these systems are like the body's internal support team, making sure everything runs smoothly? And you’re saying our diet can influence that team, right? Alex: Precisely! Let's take angiogenesis, for example. Think of it as the body's ability to grow and manage blood vessels. These aren't just pipes; they’re super important highways delivering oxygen and nutrients throughout your body. Too much or too little of this, and you run into serious trouble – like cancer or heart disease. Michelle: Okay, the image of a rogue construction crew building highways to feed a tumor is, well, disturbing. What can we possibly do to stop that? Alex: That’s where certain foods come into play. They can regulate angiogenesis, either blocking excessive blood vessel growth or encouraging it in areas that need repair – like wounds or damaged organs. Soy, for example, is rich in isoflavones, which can inhibit the growth of blood vessels that tumors need to thrive. Michelle: Interesting... And you mentioned tomatoes earlier, right? How do they fit into this "bloodstream management" scheme? Alex: Absolutely. Tomatoes contain lycopene, a powerful antioxidant. Studies have shown it can reduce angiogenesis, particularly in cases like prostate cancer. In populations where tomatoes are a staple, like in Italy, prostate cancer rates are noticeably lower. Oh, and green tea! Big ups to green tea here. Its catechins can literally cut off the blood supply to tumors. Michelle: So, are you suggesting my next cup of green tea might be sabotaging some microscopic bad guys right now? Alex: Spot on! Now, let's move to regeneration, our second system. This is all about our body’s stem cells – those amazing repair kits that regenerate tissues. Michelle: But doesn't that system slow down as we age? I mean, I can feel that my "repair kit" isn't operating as smoothly as it was when I was 20. Alex: Well, aging does slow it down, but foods can give your stem cells a remarkable boost. Purple potatoes are a great example; they contain anthocyanins that have been shown to disrupt cancer stem cells. One study showed a 40% reduction in colon cancer stem cells in mice fed purple potatoes. Also, walnuts, rich in omega-3 fatty acids and antioxidants: In one clinical trial, stage 3 colon cancer patients saw an 86% decrease in cancer stem cell activity by just eating walnuts regularly. Michelle: Wow, that’s impressive. So walnuts are like... stem-cell whisperers? Alex: <Laughs> Yeah, you could say that. They help suppress inflammation and signal the body to prioritize healing. Now, let’s get into the third system – the microbiome, which I know you're curious about. Michelle: Oh, the gut. I've heard people calling it the "second brain," but let me guess – it does way more than just digesting my lunch? Alex: So much more, Michelle! The microbiome plays a role in everything from immunity to mood regulation. It’s made up of trillions of bacteria that produce substances to either support or hinder your health. The key is maintaining a balanced microbiome, which fermented foods can really help with. Michelle: Fermented foods, huh? Like sauerkraut and kimchi? I mean, honestly, who first decided to eat cabbage that'd been sitting out for weeks? Alex: That’s a fair question! The amazing thing is how these probiotic-rich foods replenish the good bacteria in your gut. Kimchi, for instance, not only supports beneficial gut bacteria but also contains compounds that reduce inflammation. Pair these with fiber-rich foods like legumes and whole grains, and you’re creating the ideal environment for those microbes to thrive. Michelle: So, basically, it's like hosting a house party for the good bacteria while kicking out all the troublemakers? Alex: Exactly! And the benefits extend to other systems. A healthy microbiome even helps protect your DNA, which leads us to the fourth defense system: DNA protection. Michelle: DNA… the body’s instruction manual, right? So, it's under constant attack from pollution and, well, my own bad choices, I assume? Alex: You got it. DNA damage happens daily, but luckily, the body has built-in repair mechanisms. And guess what? Certain foods enhance these processes. Kiwi, for example, is phenomenal. Studies show it can repair up to 60% of oxidative stress-induced DNA damage. Then there are berries – blueberries and blackberries in particular. They're rich in antioxidants that neutralize harmful free radicals trying to damage your genetic material. Michelle: Let me guess… green tea makes the list again? Alex: You know it! Green tea's active compound, EGCG, promotes DNA repair while reducing genetic instability. It’s like the kind of beverage that's constantly working overtime for your health. Michelle: So green tea's like that overachieving kid in class who excels at everything? Immunity must be on that list too. Alex: Perfect segue! The fifth system, immunity, is all about your body’s frontline defense against pathogens and internal threats like cancer cells. Foods like mushrooms—shiitake and maitake in particular—contain beta-glucans, which activate immune responses. One study showed a 55% increase in immunoglobulin A levels in people who consumed mushrooms daily. Michelle: Which basically means their immune systems got a supercharge? That’s pretty impressive. Alex: Definitely! Another standout is aged garlic. It enhances immune cell activity, like natural killer cells, which are crucial for fighting infections and even cancer. Michelle: Garlic, mushrooms, green tea… Sounds like I’m assembling a tasty disease-fighting team here. Alex: And that’s the beauty of this approach – these are everyday foods! Understanding how they work with your body’s defenses can fundamentally change how we think about eating, right?

Michelle: So, with that base knowledge, we can dive into how specific foods play with these systems. "Food as Medicine" isn't just a catchy phrase, is it? It’s a real way to think about health, mixing science with what we eat every day. Alex: Exactly, Michelle. This is where theory meets real life. It shows how what we choose to eat can seriously affect our health. Take angiogenesis, for example. Like we were saying, it's all about balancing blood vessel formation, and it’s amazing how foods can help with that. Michelle: Right, you mentioned tomatoes and green tea. Let's break that down. If tomatoes can lower cancer risk because of lycopene, how many tomatoes are we talking? Do we need gallons of tomato juice? Alex: Luckily, no chugging required! Studies show that even a moderate amount—maybe a serving or two a day—can help. For example, the Mediterranean diet, which is full of tomatoes, is linked to lower prostate cancer rates in men. The lycopene doesn’t just cut down on blood vessel growth around tumors, it also fights oxidative stress, which causes chronic diseases. Michelle: So, could it be that simple, like making a good tomato pasta sauce once a week or tossing fresh tomatoes into a salad? Alex: Exactly. It's about building these choices into your everyday life in a way that sticks. Then there's green tea —easy to drink, really powerful—it has similar benefits because of its catechins, like we said. Michelle: Catechins sounds all scientific, but what it really means is: switching out sugary drinks for green tea can mess with the blood vessels that tumors need to grow. That’s honestly pretty cool. Alex: It is. Now, let's talk about fermented foods and gut health. Dr. Li doesn’t just talk about the gut’s importance; he says that foods like kimchi and yogurt can really boost the variety of good bacteria in your gut. Michelle: So, kimchi, that spicy fermented cabbage, it does more than just wake up your taste buds? Alex: Correct! The probiotics in kimchi feed the good bacteria in your gut, which affect everything from digestion to your immune system. A healthy gut can even lower inflammation in your whole body, helping to prevent things like diabetes and irritable bowel syndrome. Michelle: Okay, but I’ll be honest—I’m not a huge kimchi fan. What other options are there? Alex: Plenty! There's yogurt, sauerkraut, miso, even kombucha if you want something to drink. And don't forget prebiotics, like broccoli and kale, which feed those probiotics. It’s all about working together. Michelle: I get it—a team effort between fermented foods and the prebiotics they love. Now, what about DNA? You mentioned berries and protecting it. Are berries like tiny shields for our genetic code? Alex: That’s a perfect way to describe it! Berries—especially blueberries and blackberries—have strong antioxidants that fight free radicals and prevent DNA damage. Studies even show that eating them every day helps reduce oxidative stress and makes DNA repair better. Michelle: Honestly, you had me at dessert. If berries also help prevent aging and diseases like cancer, I’m in. Is there anything that goes well with these superfoods? Alex: Nuts, like walnuts or almonds, are a great match. Together, they’re a powerhouse of antioxidants and healthy fats. Oh, and green tea helps with DNA repair again, too. The three of those could easily be your daily snack. Michelle: Snacking my way to better DNA? I can definitely get behind that plan. Okay, let’s talk immunity. Mushrooms seem to be the stars here. Alex: Absolutely. Shiitake and maitake mushrooms, in particular, have beta-glucans, which boost immune activities like natural killer cell production. These are super important for fighting off infections and even pre-cancerous cells. Michelle: And with white button mushrooms boosting IgA levels by, what was it, 55%?, there’s really no excuse not to sauté some mushrooms into your meals every day. Alex: I agree. And let’s not forget aged garlic, which takes it up a notch by boosting immune function and reducing cold symptoms. It’s an old remedy with modern science backing it up. Michelle: So, are we saying that you can turn your kitchen into a mini medical lab with just mushrooms, garlic, and a few vegetables? Alex: Exactly! These simple, easy-to-get foods are “really” powerful ways to support your body’s defenses. It’s a practical, active way to think about health.

Alex: Okay, so now that we get why this matters, let's talk about how to actually do it! That's where Dr. Li's "5 × 5 × 5 Framework" comes in. It’s super practical, pretty straightforward, and frankly, a lot more freeing than feeling trapped by a super restrictive diet. The core idea is really simple: each day, you pick five foods that actively boost your body’s defense systems—one food per system. Michelle: Alright, five systems, five foods... but then there's that second "five" in the equation. What exactly does that refer to? Alex: That’s five ways to work those foods into your meals! Breakfast, lunch, snacks, dinner... it’s all about making it easy and slotting it into your life. Dr. Li emphasizes that this isn’t about completely changing everything overnight, or trying to be perfect all the time. It’s about consistent progress that actually feels doable. Michelle: Got it. It sounds more like a set of flexible guidelines than some rigid set of rules you absolutely have to follow. But Alex, are we talking about just randomly grabbing five foods we see at the store? Or is there more to it than that? Alex: Oh, there's definitely a method here! It starts with what Dr. Li calls your Personalized Food List, or PFL. Basically, you build a list of foods that you genuinely enjoy, and that happen to align with what each defense system needs. So, if you're into spinach, dark chocolate, and salmon, those could easily become part of your daily framework. Michelle: Okay, I see. So it’s customized, and not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. I'm guessing this PFL kind of becomes your personal health cheat sheet? Alex: Exactly! You tailor it to your preferences, any dietary restrictions you have, and even what's in season. The great thing about this is how adaptable it is—you’re not stuck drinking kale smoothies every single day if that doesn’t excite you. Michelle: Phew, dodged a bullet there. No forced kale is always a win. But, practically speaking, how do people actually stick with this day-to-day? Life gets in the way, you know? You can't always perfectly execute the plan. Alex: Yeah, totally. Dr. Li actually talks about that by recommending meal prep and mindful planning. If you prep a bunch of versatile options ahead of time—like roasted veggies, pre-cooked grains, or a big batch of soup—it becomes way easier to throw together balanced meals quickly. Michelle: So basically you're saying the secret weapon here is really just a good meal prep session? Roast those vegetables, cook up some grains, and suddenly you become some kind of culinary health ninja. Alex: In a way, yeah! It's such an overlooked tool, but it really helps you avoid reaching for processed or fast food, which, let's face it, don’t exactly nourish those defense systems. Instead, you can grab those roasted asparagus spears you prepped and pair them with grilled salmon for a dinner that’s supporting both angiogenesis and immunity. Michelle: So meal prep isn't just about saving time; it’s about basically setting yourself up for health success during the week. Makes sense. What about variety, though? Doesn't eating the same things all the time lead to nutrient gaps—or, at the very least, boredom? Alex: You're spot on, and Dr. Li actually emphasizes something called rotational eating. You rotate different foods through your PFL, which helps you get a wider range of nutrients and keeps things interesting. So, one week you might focus on asparagus, for example, and the next week switch over to turmeric. The more variety, the more you're exposing your body to different benefits. Michelle: That makes sense—keeps things engaging and effective. I know you've got some real-world examples you pulled from the book. Lay 'em on me. Alex: Alright, let’s start with the busy professional who used this framework despite having a crazy schedule. He stocked his PFL with things that were quick to prep, like blueberries, miso soup, and walnuts. Instead of changing everything all at once, he just made small adjustments—adding walnuts to his snacks, trading other drinks for green tea, and keeping miso soup packets at his desk. In just a few weeks, he noticed his energy levels improved, and his digestion became more regular. Michelle: So he weaponized snack time to completely overhaul his health. I like that—little tweaks, major payoff. Alex: Exactly! Then there’s this family of four that turned the whole framework into a fun game. They created a rotating food challenge, where each person would pick a new item for their PFL each week. It helped them diversify their meals as a family, and also got everyone—especially the kids—more interested in healthy eating. Michelle: That’s awesome—like turning health into family game night. I bet the kids were practically begging for a colorful vegetable medley by week two. Alex: It can be really fun! And for the parents, it just helped make the framework a regular part of their family routine, so it was easier to keep up over time. Michelle: These stories really show that the 5 × 5 × 5 Framework isn’t some crazy pursuit of diet perfection—it’s just about making small, achievable choices that turn everyday habits into acts of self-care. Alex: That's what's so brilliant about it! You’re not jumping into extremes. It’s about realizing that every positive choice—every blueberry, every cup of green tea—is contributing to your long-term health. Michelle: So next time I'm eating walnuts, I’m going to picture them battling cancer cells and repairing my system. Alex, you just made food way more epic. Alex: <Laughs> It really is! And remember—it’s that combination of practicality, variety, and intentionality that makes this framework great. It’s about building a lifestyle that actually “works” with your life, not against it.

Alex: Beyond individual choices, this framework gives readers real power over their long-term health . But what’s truly remarkable, Michelle, is how this approach can spread—from personal habits all the way up to societal change . It's not just about what you eat; it’s about changing the system itself . Michelle: Okay, so we’re zooming way out now . Personal and societal transformation—sounds pretty grand, Alex . What does that actually look like in practice? Alex: Great question . Dr. Li explains how systemic changes—in healthcare, in public policy—are vital to fully use food as medicine . He starts by highlighting a major problem: most medical schools barely teach nutrition, and doctors are rarely trained to view food as a tool for healing . Michelle: Wait a minute . Doctors—the people we trust with our health—aren’t taught how powerful something as basic as food can be? Seriously? Alex: Seriously . In fact, only a small percentage of medical schools require nutrition courses . Dr. Li illustrates this with a story about a cancer patient who wanted to know if changing her diet could help her treatment . Her doctor admitted it might, but couldn't advise her because they hadn't received the necessary training . Michelle: That's so frustrating, isn't it? People want to be active in their own recovery, but the system isn't really set up to fully support them . Alex: Exactly . That’s why Dr. Li calls for a big shift in medical education, urging schools to make nutrition a key part of their curriculum – not an afterthought, but a foundation of healthcare . Michelle: Makes sense . If doctors are supposed to be our partners in health, they need the knowledge to connect what we eat with how we heal . Going a bit deeper, Dr. Li talks about food not just as an individual choice, but as a way to prevent chronic diseases on a broader scale, right? Alex: Precisely . Chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, and some cancers account for a huge portion of global healthcare spending, and many of them are preventable with dietary changes . We’ve talked about how walnuts can reduce cancer mortality and how olive oil benefits cardiovascular health . Imagine if we scaled that up – it could really change public health outcomes . Michelle: Okay, here’s something that's been bugging me, Alex . Even if we know food is so powerful, it's not equally available to everyone . Berries, walnuts, olive oil—these aren’t exactly cheap, especially for families living paycheck to paycheck . How do we deal with that? Alex: Dr. Li addresses that too . He says food accessibility is key to societal transformation . A big problem is “food deserts”—areas where people can’t access fresh produce or nutritious foods . People in these communities often have higher rates of diet-related diseases, like obesity and diabetes, because affordable, healthy options just aren’t there . Michelle: So, if the only option is highly processed, high-calorie food, it's no wonder chronic diseases are rampant in these areas . What's the solution? Alex: Lots of ideas are being tried . Subsidizing farmers' markets or promoting urban agriculture, for example, could make fresh produce more available . Imagine community gardens popping up in food deserts, giving people access to affordable, nutritious food . Michelle: And beyond just physical access, there’s an education gap, right? People might not know how to eat healthily, or might fall for “health foods” that are packed with hidden sugars and bad fats . Alex: Exactly . Education is crucial . Dr. Li talks about things like clear food labeling to empower consumers . If you can easily see which products genuinely support your health, it’s easier to make smart choices . Michelle: Clear labels instead of marketing tricks? I'm all for that . What about collective spaces, like workplaces or schools? Can they play a role in this societal shift too? Alex: Absolutely . Dr. Li points to things like workplace wellness programs that include diet education or even cooking classes . He mentions one program where employees felt healthier and more productive, leading to a better quality of life and lower healthcare costs . Michelle: So it’s like a domino effect . Support health in one area, and it spreads to others—happier people, lower costs, better outcomes . Alex: Exactly . And Dr. Li connects this with sustainability—how our personal health choices affect the health of the planet . Michelle: Let me guess—you’re about to tell me that eating less red meat not only lowers my risk of heart disease, but also helps save the planet, right? Alex: Exactly! Livestock farming contributes a lot to greenhouse gas emissions . Eating more plant-based or locally sourced foods benefits us and reduces our environmental impact . Dr. Li mentions traditional diets like the Mediterranean or Asian diets, which are both healthy and environmentally friendly . Michelle: And those diets are all about balance, aren’t they? Less processed junk, more whole, unprocessed foods . I mean, it sounds simple but revolutionary, kind of like the whole idea of this book . Alex: That's right . The key takeaway is that every small, personal choice—whether it’s adding walnuts to your diet or choosing lentils over red meat—contributes to a much larger ripple effect . Michelle: It’s inspiring, but it also feels like the stakes are high . If more people adopted this way of thinking, we could reduce chronic diseases, lower healthcare costs, and even tackle major environmental issues—all through what we eat . Alex: Exactly—Dr. Li calls it the collective imperative . If individuals, healthcare providers, governments, and communities all support this approach, the potential is astounding . Michelle: So it goes way beyond just what to eat—it’s a call to rethink how we see health itself . And if society acts on this, the possibilities seem endless .

Alex: Okay, Michelle, let's wrap things up . Today, we've been digging into Dr . Li's “Eat to Beat Disease”, and how it reveals these five amazing health defense systems—angiogenesis, regeneration, your microbiome, DNA protection, and, of course, immunity . And these systems are constantly working to keep us healthy, right? Michelle: Right! And the really mind-blowing part is that food – something we all deal with every day – can actually power these defenses . I mean, from tomatoes helping to control blood vessels to fermented foods bringing your gut back to life, it’s like science has given us this amazing health manual, and it's all in our kitchens . Alex: Exactly! And what's great is how practical it all is . The 5 × 5 × 5 Framework really simplifies healthy eating: five systems, five foods, five ways to include them . It's not about being perfect or making huge changes overnight . It's about making small, mindful choices, which ultimately become habits that lead to long-term health . Michelle: But it's even bigger than just what we're eating, isn't it? It’s about changing the way we think about food in medicine, healthcare, and in society as a whole . We're not just nourishing ourselves; we’re actually driving change on a larger scale . Alex: Absolutely . The key thing to remember is that every meal is a chance – a chance to improve your health, protect your body, and help create a healthier, more sustainable world . Michelle: So, here's a challenge for our listeners: start small . Maybe switch out that soda for some green tea, or add some berries to your breakfast tomorrow . See that small change as the first domino, and who knows what impact it'll have—not just on you, but maybe on others too . Alex: Remember, food isn't just fuel . It's a tool, a bodyguard, and a way to make a difference . And you have the power to use it . Michelle: So, here’s to making every bite count—for ourselves, for our communities, and for the world . Let’s get eating!