Roger: Hello everyone, welcome to the show! Today, we’re tackling a question that’s really making waves, from the executive suite to the water cooler: Can businesses be a force for good in the world and still make money? Patricia: Ah, the age-old dilemma – trying to save the world while also meeting those pesky financial targets. Sounds like a corporate myth, doesn’t it? Roger: Not necessarily, Patricia. In Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity Through Business, John Mackey alongside his co-authors argue that purpose-driven leadership isn’t just a feel-good concept, but crucial for long-term success. We're not talking about empty slogans; it's about genuinely weaving love, integrity, and innovation into leadership to create tangible change. Patricia: So, less group hugs and more crafting deals that are beneficial for everyone involved? Now, that's something I can get behind. Roger: Precisely. We’re going to break this down into three key areas. First, we’ll examine the principles of leading with purpose and love – what that actually looks like in the real world. Then, we'll delve into strategies for creating shared value – how businesses can benefit not only shareholders but also their employees, customers, and the community. And lastly, we’ll discuss the leadership tools needed to build resilient, inclusive teams that can prosper in today's complicated world. Patricia: Ambitious, for sure. But, if there's a way to steer a company like a beacon through these treacherous ethical waters, I'm willing to put my cynicism aside – for the time being. Roger: Well, let’s see if we can sway you. Whether you’re a CEO, an entrepreneur, or just part of a team, our discussion today will make you rethink leadership and perhaps spark some positive changes in your own workplace.

Roger: So, let's get started with the basics of conscious leadership: its core ideas and guiding principles. Basically, it’s about changing how we define success. It’s less about slashing costs and boosting quarterly earnings like the traditional way, and more about aligning business goals with social progress, stakeholder well-being, and sustainability. Patricia: Ah, aligning capitalism with conscience—that's a bold move. But it sounds like a tightrope walk only certain leaders can manage. I mean, how many executives are ready to trade profit reports for team-building exercises? Roger: Well, it's not about trading one for the other, it’s about integrating them. Take "leading with love," for example—Mackey talks about it a lot. And no, we're not talking about romance here. It means showing compassion, generosity, and mutual respect. And believe it or not, it's not just for fancy Fortune 500 companies. This stuff works at all levels. Patricia: Okay, color me intrigued. Give me some real-world examples to win over my data-loving heart. Roger: Sure. Look at Whole Foods Market. They do simple things, like ending meetings by having team members recognize each other's contributions—smart acts of gratitude that don't cost a thing but “really” boost morale. It’s about building emotional connection into everyday work. When people feel valued, innovation goes up, collaboration gets stronger, and people don't leave as often. Patricia: So you’re saying love isn't free—it pays out dividends? Interesting. But what happens when things get “really” tough? What if you have to choose between layoffs and keeping the company afloat? Can love still play a role then? Roger: That's where acting with integrity comes in—another key part of conscious leadership. Integrity is about being truthful and staying aligned with your values. Leaders have to make tough calls, but when those calls are based on strong ethical values, people trust them more. Take Ramón Mendiola, the CEO of FIFCO in Costa Rica, as a great example. Patricia: FIFCO—that's the beverage company, right? What did he do? Roger: Right, FIFCO makes beer and other drinks. So, Mendiola found out that even though he was paying competitive wages, some of his employees were still struggling with poverty. Instead of ignoring it, he did something about it. He created the FIFCO Opportunities program to help and mentor his employees. Within three years, none of them were living below the poverty line. Patricia: That's impressive. But beyond the "feel-good" aspect, what was the business reason for doing that? Did FIFCO gain anything besides goodwill? Roger: Good question. Of course, employees’ lives improved. But so did the company culture and how productive people were. When people aren't stressed about money, they can focus more on working together and coming up with new ideas. Plus, it made FIFCO look like a trustworthy company, which improved its reputation with customers and investors. Patricia: So, integrity isn't just a moral choice—it's a smart business move. Got it. But can companies “really” keep up these kinds of big programs without hurting their ability to compete? Roger: That's where having a purpose beyond just making money comes in. Leaders like Mendiola and Mackey know that if you only focus on short-term profits, you can hurt your long-term impact. Balancing those things means making sure every decision fits into a bigger, shared purpose. Patricia: Let me guess, this takes us back to Mackey's journey with Whole Foods? Roger: Exactly! Remember the dot-com crash in the early 2000s? Well, Whole Foods felt the impact too. Mackey started questioning his leadership and where the company was going. But instead of panicking, he took time to think about things and find his purpose again. He went back to Whole Foods’ mission: providing healthy food and improving people's lives. That new focus changed him and the entire company culture. Patricia: Hold on. What real changes did this "purpose revival" actually bring about? Roger: Everything changed—from the company's plans to its day-to-day operations. Everything was adjusted to fit that mission. And the results? Whole Foods went from $1 billion to $19 billion in annual sales over the next few decades. Turns out, when people know they're working toward something meaningful, they get more involved. They're not just working for a paycheck—they're driven by a shared goal. Patricia: Not bad at all. A $19 billion argument for leading with a greater purpose is hard to ignore, even for skeptics like me. But let's be honest—transformations like that don’t happen easily. Big ideas sound great until they run into the constant pressures from shareholders and the markets. So how do leaders handle those competing demands? Roger: That's where balancing stakeholder value comes in. Conscious leadership is about figuring out solutions that benefit everyone involved. It’s not just wishful thinking; it's smart planning. Look at the Whole Foods-Amazon merger in 2017 as an example. Patricia: Ah yes, a classic example of Whole Foods teaming up with an e-commerce giant. Okay, what happened behind the scenes? Roger: Well, Whole Foods was facing a lot of competition and wasn't growing as fast as it used to. Some people wanted to cut costs dramatically or even sell the company to private equity firms. But Mackey and his team saw a chance to partner with Amazon in a way that would create value for everyone. Customers got lower prices, employees got better wages, and suppliers were able to reach more people. That's “really” what balancing stakeholder value is all about. Patricia: Interesting! So instead of going for the quick fix, they played the long game—and things worked out better for everyone. Sounds like dealing with those kinds of pressures requires not just vision, but strategy and a lot of patience, maybe. Roger: Exactly! Leading consciously means thinking about the whole system—understanding how your decisions affect everything around you and creating partnerships that respect those effects. It means making tough choices with integrity, trusting that the long-term benefits will outweigh any short-term pain. Patricia: Definitely something to think about—no pun intended. Conscious leadership seems less like a business fad and more like a fundamental change to the system itself. Do you think things like self-reflection or mentorship programs can make these principles easier to apply for every leader, not just the Mackeys and Mendiolas of the world? Roger: Absolutely—and we’ll get into those tools in more detail later. But for now, let's just say, if you commit to these principles—love, integrity, purpose, and balance—you're setting the stage for lasting impact. Anything less is just, well, more of the same old transactional leadership.

Roger: So, we’ve been talking about conscious leadership, right? Let's get into how to actually make it work. I'm talking win-win-win solutions – moving beyond just making a profit. It's all about practical strategies and collaboration, things that could really help any organization. Patricia: Win-win-win? Okay, triple the win. Sounds like having your cake, eating it, and getting a free ice cream on top. I'm guessing it's a bit more complex than that? Roger: It is! A win-win-win is about creating outcomes that benefit everyone like the company, its employees, the customers, and even society. It’s about saying "no" to situations where one group wins at the expense of another. It's about creating shared value for the long haul. Patricia: So, it's like making a deal where everyone gets a decent slice of the pie. Sounds good in theory, but how does that hold up against the, you know, real world? It's tricky enough just keeping one group happy! Roger: Exactly, and that's where the magic happens, Patricia. It's about seeing success, not as a fixed pie that needs to be divided, but as a growing process where we create more opportunities for everyone. Conscious leaders rely on collaboration and innovation to make it happen. Think about the Whole Foods-Amazon merger. Patricia: Right, from organic kale to delivered kale. Interesting. So, how did everyone get their fair share in that deal? Was it really a win-win-win, or just good PR? Roger: Well, it's a really interesting case study. Back in 2017, Whole Foods was struggling, right? Tough competition, growth was slowing down. Investors were pushing for cost cuts and quick profits. But John Mackey, the CEO, wanted to protect their mission, so he looked for a partner who shared those values. And that turned out to be Amazon. Patricia: Okay, makes sense from Whole Foods' point of view – survival and all. But what about the employees and customers? When a big company buys a smaller one, you usually hear about job losses, store closures, that kind of thing. Roger: That's what makes it so fascinating! For customers, Amazon's tech and logistics meant lower prices on everyday items and faster delivery. It made Whole Foods more accessible to more people. And employees? Amazon raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour. That helped with job satisfaction and fairness. Patricia: Alright, so customers saved money and employees got a raise. But what about all those smaller suppliers? Weren't they worried about being pushed out or undercut? Roger: Even the smaller suppliers, the local farmers, were taken care of, Patricia. Whole Foods kept its commitment to supporting them, so they could grow with Amazon's broader reach. It was a way to keep their original mission alive while exploring new avenues for growth. Patricia: Okay, I'm buying the triple-win... for now. But let's not forget the shareholders, those perpetually hungry backseat drivers. What did they get out of it? Roger: Shareholders saw gains, too. Amazon bought Whole Foods at a premium, which meant a solid return on investment. Plus, the merger helped Whole Foods withstand the competition. It protected its value and kept its reputation intact for the long term. Patricia: So, it wasn't just about avoiding disaster. It let Whole Foods stay true to its mission while adapting to a changing market. I have to say, there's something appealing about making a deal where everyone comes out ahead instead of resentful. But not every company can get cozy with Amazon. How do other leaders make this happen without getting lucky? Roger: That's where having the right tools and systems comes in. For example, stakeholder mapping where you identify and analyze the needs of everyone involved helps you design strategies that are more inclusive. And conducting impact assessments help to measure social and environmental consequences avoids any blind spots. Patricia: So, it's like combining analytics with ethics. Sounds good on paper, but are companies actually using this stuff? Or is it just for show? Roger: Oh, they're using them, and successfully! Look at Patagonia. They've been committed to sustainability for years, using impact assessments to improve their supply chain and make it more eco-friendly. They consider the needs of all stakeholders at Patagonia from how they source materials to how they educate their customers. Patricia: So, what are some other tools? Partnerships, maybe? Like the one we saw with Whole Foods and Amazon? Roger: Absolutely! When done right, ethical partnerships can create amazing results without compromising anyone's values. They encourage everyone to get on the same page, so that long-term goals trump short-term profits. Patricia: Alright, so the tools are there. Stakeholder mapping, ethical partnerships, impact assessments... they all help put this win-win-win concept into practice. But let's take a step back for a moment. What's the big lesson here? What's the takeaway for leaders trying to make this happen? Roger: It's that success isn't about compromise, it's about alignment. By encouraging collaboration, focusing on a shared purpose, and understanding how everyone is connected, leaders can create authentic shared value. It's about changing your mindset and seeing leadership not just as managing resources but about building relationships that help everyone thrive Patricia: I'll admit, it's nice to see businesses as ecosystems instead of machines. It sounds idealistic, sure. But if the Whole Foods-Amazon merger proved anything, it's that “idealistic” doesn't necessarily mean “impossible.”

Roger: So, shifting our focus to holistic value creation, let's talk about continuous growth and adaptability, shall we? Continuous growth, together with cultural intelligence, really equips leaders and organizations to navigate complexity, embrace diversity, and achieve long-term success. This area really broadens into personal and organizational development, focusing especially on the skills leaders need in our rapidly changing global environment. Patricia: Growth and adaptability—they’re definitely buzzwords until you realize they mean constant change. So, Roger, how do we balance this need for transformation when we still have to, you know, keep the lights on? I’m picturing someone spinning plates while learning a new dance. Roger: That's a valid point, Patricia. Sustained growth and adaptability require, well, more than just balancing plates. You have to embed learning and cultural intelligence into the core of an organization. Let’s break it down, starting with fostering a learning culture—that's really the foundation for lasting resilience. Patricia: Learning culture? Does that mean our company memos will start sounding like college lectures? Because if so, the office printers are going to stage a revolt. Roger: Not exactly, Patricia. A learning culture, as thinkers like Peter Senge have framed it, is really about creating an organizational mindset in which learning, innovation, and adaptability aren’t just one-off events—they’re ongoing processes. And to really sustain that, leaders must model openness and even vulnerability while creating environments that encourage curiosity. Patricia: Leaders being vulnerable? Isn’t that like throwing sharks into a pool with a paper boat? How do you even convince competitive executives to show their “human side”? Roger: Well, it's less about exposing weaknesses and more about fostering trust. That’s where deliberately developmental organizations, or DDOs, come in—a model championed by Robert Kegan. These organizations build development right into their DNA by celebrating learning from mistakes, prioritizing feedback, and promoting collaboration at every level. Patricia: Okay, give me some real-world examples. Who has actually done this without completely descending into chaos? Roger: Microsoft is a great example. Under Satya Nadella’s leadership, they adopted a "growth mindset" framework inspired by psychologist Carol Dweck. It's essentially the belief that intelligence and abilities can develop through persistence and effort. Microsoft basically created an atmosphere where taking creative risks—even if it meant failure—was encouraged. Patricia: So, the same company that used to crush rivals like Netscape now tells employees, "Go ahead, fail spectacularly"? That’s quite the turnaround. Roger: Exactly, and it’s paid off. When employees feel safe to experiment rather than fearing severe repercussions, the doors to innovation really open wide. Through transparency, through embracing psychological safety, Microsoft moved from being seen as a stagnant legacy company to a competitive, forward-thinking leader in tech. Patricia: So, creating a learning culture isn’t just about scheduling an annual "innovation workshop.” It’s about reshaping how people think and act every day. But how do you sustain that mindset when the stakes are incredibly high, like during a market downturn? Roger: Well, sustaining it really hinges on leadership reinforcing three things: prioritizing psychological safety, ensuring feedback loops are consistent, and providing growth initiatives. For example, peer mentoring programs or leadership workshops can keep the culture aligned, even under pressure. Patricia: Alright, I’ll concede that empowering employees to engage, reflect, and risk might prevent the dreaded workplace zombie effect. But, here’s a question: how does all this learning and growth translate when an organization isn’t just diverse in roles but also in cultural backgrounds? Roger: That really ties into our next piece: cultural intelligence, or CQ. Unlike learning culture, which focuses inward, cultural intelligence is about understanding external differences and navigating them effectively. It’s crucial for leaders managing diverse teams or operating in global markets. Patricia: Cultural intelligence—it sounds impressive until you’re trying to decode three different meanings of the word "yes." So, where exactly do leaders begin? Roger: That’s a great question. Let's start with Starbucks and what happened in 2018. After two Black men were wrongly arrested at a store, Starbucks faced widespread backlash over racial bias. The leadership responded by temporarily closing every U.S. store for an afternoon of racial bias training — definitely a bold effort to recalibrate their organizational awareness. Patricia: Closing every store? That’s not just a statement—that's a huge revenue hit. Did that one day of training magically solve systemic cultural bias, or was it purely symbolic? Roger: No, it wasn’t a complete fix – but it was a commitment to cultural accountability. Starbucks recognized the need to embed listening and reflective practices into their operations. An intervention like this shows how CQ really begins with addressing internal blind spots and acknowledging that inclusivity is an ongoing effort, not just a box to check. Patricia: So, acknowledging diversity isn’t enough—you actually have to use it as some sort of strategic advantage. Are there any success stories that show what that looks like? Roger: Absolutely. Companies that embrace integrative cultural frameworks really thrive. Let's consider Amazon’s Technical Advisor program. It pairs high-potential employees with senior leaders to enhance both leadership skills and visibility for underrepresented voices. Programs like this integrate CQ with a dedication to learning, ensuring internal diversity definitely has a seat at the problem-solving table. Patricia: I'll admit this: diverse teams might argue more, but they probably argue smarter—and often find solutions that more homogenous groups would completely overlook. Still, turning cultural IQ into organizational superpowers has to be rooted in something practical, not just airy mission statements. Roger: Precisely, which is why practical tools for CQ—like cross-cultural coaching and stakeholder listening strategies—exist. For instance, a company might use data-driven methods to identify gaps in hiring processes or representation. The insights then inform policies that target systemic disparities. Patricia: Okay, so instead of just playing defense, businesses can use CQ to proactively unlock growth by reflecting the values of their workforce and customers. But Roger, what happens when cultural intelligence meets learning culture? Is there some kind of holy grail hidden in that combination? Roger: Absolutely, there is. The synergy between the two really comes when organizations use inclusivity to fuel innovation. By empowering inclusion and diversity, leaders foster an environment where diverse voices contribute meaningfully and everyone is encouraged to learn -- ideas meet perspectives they might never have encountered. And that’s really where true transformation begins. Patricia: You mean like Amazon pairing mentorship with operations, or like Patagonia leveraging cultural and environmental awareness to lead on sustainability? It’s pretty clear these success stories aren’t just lucky accidents—they’re deliberate strategies. Roger: Exactly. Whether it’s mentoring, cross-cultural coaching, or integrative thinking, these strategies all share a common thread: prioritizing people. And when leaders empower people across lines of perspective or culture, well, the possibilities for growth are infinite.

Roger: Okay, Patricia, let’s bring this home. Today, we've seen how conscious leadership is changing the game. It’s not about cutthroat competition anymore, but creating a system where everyone benefits – purpose, integrity, and shared success are key. When businesses prioritize positive impact alongside profit, that’s where the real magic happens. Patricia: Exactly, Roger. This isn't just some feel-good philosophy, right? We’re talking about tangible results. Companies like Whole Foods, FIFCO, and Microsoft—they’ve all seen the benefits of leading with purpose. So, it seems like this heart-and-hustle approach isn't just idealistic; it’s actually good for business. What’s the catch? Roger: Well, that's the challenge for our listeners. Think about one concrete way you can bring these ideas into your own work. Maybe it's re-evaluating how you make decisions to ensure they create value for everyone involved, or really focusing on developing your team, or even just trying to lead with a little more empathy. Patricia: Right, right. And, hey, if leading with love feels a bit… intense, start small. Like, create a safe space for honest feedback, celebrate teamwork, and really listen to different perspectives. Transformation, it’s a journey not a jump, right? Roger: Couldn’t agree more, Patricia. Conscious leadership, at its heart, is not just about building a more successful enterprise. Ultimately, it’s about creating something better for us all. Patricia: So, let's all raise a glass to leading with purpose, and, you know, maybe even giving those spreadsheets a hug along the way.