Michelle: Alright, Mark, I have a controversial statement for you. The key to being a great communicator and getting what you want from people... is to become more selfish. Mark: Whoa, okay. That is not what I was expecting. Selfish? I thought communication was all about the other person. You're telling me to get better at connecting with others, I need to focus more on… me? That feels completely backward. Michelle: It feels backward, but it's the profound core of the book we're diving into today: Active Listening and Communication Skills by Valerie P. Poulos. And Poulos isn't just a self-help author; she's a licensed clinical social worker. She's seen these communication breakdowns firsthand in therapy rooms for years, which gives these tools a real clinical weight. Mark: Okay, a clinical social worker telling us to be more selfish. You have my full attention. Unpack this for me, because my brain is doing a little flip right now. How does being selfish make you a better listener?

Michelle: Well, it’s not selfish in the way we usually think of it, like ignoring others. It’s about radical self-awareness. Poulos argues that most of our communication failures happen before we even open our mouths. They happen because of the 'noise' inside our own heads. Mark: Internal noise? What does that mean? Like, my own thoughts getting in the way? Michelle: Exactly. She calls them things like cognitive distortions, which are basically irrational beliefs we carry around from our past experiences. They act like a filter, warping how we interpret what people are saying to us in the present. Mark: That makes sense. It’s like wearing invisible glasses that color everything someone says. You're not reacting to their words; you're reacting to the tint of your own glasses. Michelle: That’s a perfect analogy. And the book has this incredible story that brings it to life. It’s about a married couple, Paul and Cheryl. One night, they're making dinner. Cheryl is chopping onions, and Paul, who fancies himself a good cook, offers her a little "helpful" advice on her technique. Mark: Oh, I can already feel the tension. The unsolicited kitchen advice. A classic. Michelle: A classic indeed. Cheryl, who has a history of dealing with demeaning men, doesn't hear helpful advice. She hears criticism. She hears, "You're doing it wrong." So she snaps back with some heavy sarcasm. Now, Paul has his own baggage. He was bullied as a kid and is extremely sensitive to feeling dismissed or powerless. So when Cheryl dismisses his advice, he doesn't just feel annoyed. He feels attacked. Mark: So he's not reacting to his wife's sarcastic comment. He's reacting to a ghost from his middle school playground. Michelle: Precisely. The argument escalates through dinner, and Paul ends up saying something deeply offensive. The whole evening is ruined. And the trigger wasn't the onions. It was the clash of their internal distortions. Her distortion was "men are trying to demean me," and his was "people are trying to make me feel powerless." They weren't even in the same conversation. Mark: Wow. So the fight wasn't about the onions at all. It was about their personal ghosts showing up to dinner. That’s actually kind of heartbreaking. But it raises a huge question: how do you even know you have these distortions? It feels like trying to see the back of your own head. Michelle: It does. And that’s where the "selfish" part comes in. Poulos says you have to practice listening to yourself first. She offers tools like mindfulness—not in a vague, spiritual way, but as a practical diagnostic tool. It's about pausing long enough to notice your own physical and emotional reactions in a conversation. Is your heart rate climbing? Is your stomach tightening? Are you feeling defensive? Mark: So you're basically doing a systems check on yourself in real-time. "Warning: Defensiveness levels rising." Michelle: Exactly. Another tool is emotional self-regulation. The book tells this story about Faye and Dan, a couple discussing childbirth. Faye wants a home water birth, and Dan is terrified of the risks. But instead of expressing his fear and concern, his emotion hijacks him. He just yells, "You're having the baby in a hospital, and that's final!" Mark: And I'm guessing that didn't go over well. Michelle: It was a disaster. Faye was so frightened by his anger that she completely shut down. The conversation was over, and her trust in him was damaged. If Dan had practiced emotional self-regulation, he could have said, "Hearing that idea makes me feel really scared. Can we talk about my fears?" Same message—his concern—but a completely different delivery and outcome. Mark: Okay, I'm starting to see the loop. If you don't manage your own internal noise—your distortions, your emotions—you can't possibly hear what the other person is actually saying. You're just reacting to your own internal chaos. Michelle: You’ve got it. It's about clearing your own channel first. That's the foundation. Without that, all the "active listening techniques" in the world are just a performance. Mark: That’s a really important point. Because a lot of the criticism around active listening is that it can feel fake or manipulative. You know, the person nodding and saying, "What I'm hearing you say is..." like they're reading from a script. Michelle: Right. And Poulos’s argument is that it is fake if you haven't done the internal work. If you're just using a technique without genuine, self-aware empathy, the other person will feel it. They'll know you're just playing a part. The authenticity has to come from a place of inner calm and clarity. Mark: So you have to be a good listener to yourself before you can be a good listener to anyone else. The selfishness is actually a prerequisite for empathy. Michelle: That’s the whole idea. And once you've managed your own internal noise, you unlock this superpower for dealing with other people's noise. This brings us to the persuasion paradox: to get what you want, you stop trying to win.

Mark: Okay, another paradox. I like it. So how does not trying to win help you win? Michelle: It works by shifting your goal. Instead of trying to force your point across, your goal becomes giving the other person what they need in that moment. And usually, what they need most is to feel heard. Mark: To feel like their own 'internal noise' has been acknowledged. Michelle: Exactly. There's a brilliant story in the book about an IT professional named Alan. He's called to a conference site because a client, Eddie, is having Wi-Fi problems. Alan knows exactly how to fix it, but when he arrives, Eddie, who has been frantically Googling solutions, just wants to explain his own theories about the problem. Mark: Oh, the classic "I did my own research" client. Every expert's favorite encounter. Michelle: Right? And Alan's first instinct is to interrupt and say, "No, no, that's not it, here's the real solution." But he catches himself. He sees that Eddie isn't ready for a solution. Eddie is agitated and needs to feel competent and in control. He needs to be heard. Mark: So what does Alan do? Michelle: He just stops. He puts his own agenda on hold, looks Eddie in the eye, and says, "Tell me what you've found." He just listens. He lets Eddie explain all his theories, nodding and giving him his full attention. After a few minutes, when Eddie has finally gotten it all out, Alan says something like, "Wow, looks like you did your research! That's really helpful context." Mark: He validates him. He gives him the feeling of competence he was craving. Michelle: He does. And only after Eddie feels heard and respected does Alan gently say, "Based on what you've told me, I think I have an idea. Can we try one thing?" And at that point, Eddie is completely calm and receptive. He says, "Sure, go for it." Alan fixes the problem in two minutes, and Eddie is thrilled, shaking his hand and thanking him for being so helpful. Mark: That's incredible. So Alan 'won' by 'losing' the initial argument. He gave up control of the conversation to gain control of the situation. Michelle: That’s the persuasion paradox. It’s a technique the book also links to something called motivational interviewing. Instead of telling someone they're wrong, you ask questions that help them see the discrepancy in their own logic. Mark: Can you give an example of that? It sounds a bit like therapy-speak. Michelle: Let's use the story of Yosef, a manager, and his assistant, Tom. Tom keeps asking for more responsibility but then fails to complete the tasks. Instead of confronting him angrily, Yosef sits him down and says, "Tom, I've noticed a pattern. You say you want more responsibility, which is great, but then the tasks aren't getting done. What do you think is getting in the way?" Mark: He's not accusing. He's making Tom the detective of his own problem. Michelle: Exactly. And Tom, feeling supported rather than attacked, admits he gets overwhelmed and forgets. Yosef then asks, "What do you suggest we do about this?" Tom himself comes up with the solution: setting reminders on his phone. Because it was his idea, he's now invested in making it work. Yosef persuaded him to change by empowering him, not by lecturing him. Mark: This is where I can see the real power. It’s not just about de-escalating arguments, it's about genuinely helping people move forward. But it requires so much patience. It feels like the opposite of our fast-paced, win-the-argument-on-Twitter culture. Michelle: It is the absolute opposite. It requires slowing down, being present, and sometimes, as the book points out, just using silence. Letting someone sit with their own thoughts can be more powerful than any words you could offer. It’s about creating space, not filling it.

Mark: It really feels like all these tools—mindfulness, validation, motivational interviewing—they all point back to the same central idea. Michelle: They do. The whole model is this beautiful loop. You listen to yourself to clear your own noise. That clarity allows you to genuinely listen to others. And that genuine listening is what ultimately gives you influence. It’s not a tactic; it’s a state of being. Mark: A state of being. I like that. It’s not a mask you put on; it’s a result of your own internal work. It reframes active listening from a soft skill to a form of personal mastery. Michelle: That’s it exactly. You master yourself, you master the conversation. It’s about understanding that in any communication, there are two conversations happening: the one about the topic at hand, and the one about each person's emotional needs. The person who can hear and address both is the one who truly connects. Mark: So if we were to give our listeners one thing to try from this, one practical first step, what would it be? Where do you even start? Michelle: I think the most powerful and simplest first step is the one from the book on mindfulness. Just for one day, in one conversation—maybe with your partner, a coworker, or a friend—try to notice your own internal reaction before you speak. Don't change it, don't judge it. Just notice it. Notice the heat rising, the defensiveness, the urge to interrupt. That's the first step to everything else. Mark: Just observe the 'internal noise' without acting on it. I can do that. And I bet it’s going to be a lot louder than I think. Michelle: It almost always is. Mark: And we'd love to hear how that goes. Find us on our socials and tell us what you noticed. What's the 'noise' in your head? Is it a critic? A worrier? An inner lawyer? It's fascinating stuff. Michelle: It really is. It’s the work of a lifetime, but it starts with a single, quiet moment of self-listening. Michelle: This is Aibrary, signing off.