Roger: Hey everyone, and welcome! Today, we’re diving deep into something I find incredibly powerful: the 5 Levels of Leadership. Think of it not just as climbing some corporate ladder, but as a journey to becoming a truly impactful leader. Patricia: So, Roger, you're saying leadership isn't just about bossing people around from a fancy office? Because honestly, I know a few “leaders” who might really need to hear this. Roger: Precisely, Patricia! It's not about the title. It's about the influence you wield, the relationships you cultivate, and the footprint you leave behind. John Maxwell’s “5 Levels of Leadership” offers a fantastic roadmap for growth, from just having positional authority to building something that lasts. Patricia: Okay, a five-step ladder then. Let me guess: Level 1 is "The Corner Office," and Level 5 is "You're Basically Mandela"? Roger: Not quite so dramatic, but it is a progression, and it’s relevant to anyone in a leadership role. We’ll explore three key areas today: first, the framework itself, which, yeah, you can think of like building a pyramid – each level supports the next. Then we’ll look at the connection piece – how relationships built on trust and collaboration take us beyond just authority. And finally, the incredible impact of mentoring, you know, how leaders multiply their influence. Patricia: So, we’re climbing, connecting, and building legacies. Sounds… ambitious. I'm in. Let's see how solid this pyramid really is.

Roger: Okay, Patricia, let’s dive into this leadership pyramid, starting with Level 1: Position. This is basically where leadership equals your job title. You're in charge because HR says so. People follow you because they “have” to. Patricia: Right, the old "because I said so" approach. Is it really that bad? Surely having authority gets things done, right? Roger: Well, it gets compliance, sure, maybe even obedience, however, it doesn’t exactly inspire anyone. At this level, your relationships are purely transactional. You give orders, people follow them to a point, but there’s no real commitment or loyalty. They do the bare minimum, because they feel like they “have” to, not because they “want” to. Patricia: So, the leadership equivalent of assembling IKEA furniture with brute force. It gets done, but everyone's frustrated, and nobody sticks around to celebrate. I get the picture. Roger: Exactly! Think of a newly promoted manager who knows their technical stuff, but hasn’t connected with their team. The team complies initially, but morale drops fast. They aren’t engaged, and the manager struggles to get anything more than the basics. That’s Level 1 in a nutshell. Patricia: Level 1 is like getting the keys to a sports car but having no idea how to drive it, right? So, how do you level up? Roger: By earning trust and building relationships, that's what takes us to Level 2: Permission. Here, leadership becomes relational, not just positional. People follow you because they “want” to. That shift makes all the difference. Patricia: Hang on a second. Relational leadership sounds good, but what does it look like day-to-day? It's not just about being popular, is it? Roger: Not at all, Patricia. It's about making authentic connections. A key part of this is genuinely showing everyone you care. You’re not just managing tasks—you’re leading people. A supervisor who checks in with their team, listens, and genuinely supports them is operating at Level 2. These kinds of leaders build a culture of mutual respect and trust. Patricia: Okay, devil’s advocate time. Could focusing too much on relationships blur the lines of accountability? Like, if you're trying to be everyone's friend, how do you have those difficult, but necessary, conversations? Roger: Great question! It’s about balancing care with candor. You can care about someone and still hold them accountable. Actually, leaders who've built up trust are often better at giving tough feedback, because their team knows it's coming from a place of genuine support. Patricia: Got it. So it's not about holding hands and singing "Kumbaya", right? It’s about building a foundation where honest and productive cooperation can exist. Are there any tricks to putting it into practice? Roger: Yes, and one-on-one meetings are a great start. Do you use them? Well, these aren't just formalities. They're chances to really listen, give advice, and show that you value each person on your team. Also, improve your active listening skills. Focus fully on the conversation at hand without trying to fix anything. This makes a huge difference. Patricia: Makes sense. But isn't this exhausting, especially with large teams? How do you avoid burnout at Level 2? Roger: It's a real challenge. Emotional fatigue is real, especially when you're constantly pouring energy into building and maintaining relationships. That's why Level 3: Production is vital. It's the next step where you generate tangible outcomes to fuel growth. Patricia: Now we're talking. Level 3 sounds like where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. Do we finally ditch the group hugs, and concentrate on actual measurable metrics at this stage? Roger: Not entirely. Actually, what makes Level 3 exciting is balancing your priorities. While results are the main focus, you don’t abandon relationships. Great leaders here align their team's efforts with a clear vision and show how individual contributions drive the organization forward. Patricia: Aha, so at Level 3, leaders are like a GPS on a road trip. They set the destination, plan the route, and make sure everyone stays on track, more or less. Roger: Exactly! For example, think of a hospital administrator who gets their staff excited about patient care. Then, they break the bigger vision into steps, like shorter wait times and better contact, and they publicly celebrate each little success. This creates the kind of energy that keeps the team pushing towards even bigger goals. Patricia: But here's a potential danger: leaders who hyper-focus on outcomes could forget about their people. You can only push so hard before people burn out. How do you prevent that from happening? Roger: That’s a genuine risk. The solution is moving smoothly into Level 4: People Development. Instead of just chasing results, leaders grow their people to build momentum and increase impact. It's not enough to win today. You’ve got to build a team that can win tomorrow, too. Patricia: So, the jump from Level 3 to Level 4 is going from being the star player to becoming the coach, hmm? It's about developing others rather than doing it all yourself. Roger: Precisely so. At Level 4, leaders invest in mentoring, delegating, and building skills. They take the time to find potential in their team and actively develop it. Now that’s true leadership – making other leaders. Patricia: I like this shift. When you’re mentoring someone, the payoff isn’t just in their success, you're also cementing your own legacy. Speaking of which, this sounds like a perfect lead-in to the ultimate stage...

Roger: Exactly, Patricia. Level 5, the Pinnacle, is where leadership really hits its stride. The thing is, it's not just about fame or fancy titles. It’s about creating a “real” legacy and having a systemic impact. Leaders here aren’t just thinking about their quarterly results, or even who they’ve mentored. They're transforming their organizations and even their industries, leaving behind a framework that helps others thrive long after they're gone. Patricia: So, the Pinnacle is like planting a whole forest instead of just one tree, right? You’re building something that grows and sustains itself, even without you there to water it anymore. Roger: Yeah, that’s a great way to put it, Patricia. It “really” nails it. Level 5 leaders are often seen as visionaries, not necessarily because they're these super charismatic personalities, but because their impact has this incredible ripple effect. They’ve built structures, systems, and cultures that just naturally encourage growth. It's where building those relationships and developing people leads to some seriously tangible results that are bigger than any one person. Patricia: Okay, but let's get practical for a second. What actually sets a Level 5 leader apart from someone still climbing the ladder? You know, what traits are we talking about? Roger: Two things jump out immediately: humility and a really deep sense of accountability. First, you've got to have humility, because these leaders know they're not the only reason for success. They're quick to share the credit and shine the spotlight on others. And then, accountability is all about taking ownership, especially when things don't go as planned. Level 5 leaders have this “no excuses” kind of attitude. Patricia: That all sounds very virtuous, but humility and accountability alone don't build empires, do they? You mentioned systems and culture earlier. How do Level 5 leaders actually go about setting those up? Roger: Right, they do it by weaving their values and vision into the very DNA of their organization. Remember Capt. Mike Abrashoff, who we talked about before? He turned his ship around not by barking orders, but by getting every sailor to feel responsible for their role. He created systems that encouraged collaboration, accountability, and innovation, and they lasted even after he left. That's Level 5 in action – your influence sticks around because you've prepped others to lead as effectively as you did. Patricia: Makes perfect sense. I mean, leadership isn’t scalable if it depends on one person pushing the boulder uphill day after day. You’re basically setting the stage for the boulder to roll on its own. Roger: Exactly. And it’s also super important that these leaders consistently model integrity. It's not just about what they say; it's about what they do. That Mark Twain watermelon story is a perfect example of how those small acts of principle can have a huge impact. If you're a leader who lives your values, the people around you will naturally follow suit. Patricia: Alright, Roger, I get it. Level 5 is like the master plan where building relationships, developing people, and achieving results all come together to keep the ship—or the boulder, if we're still using that metaphor—moving in the right direction. But can every leader realistically reach this level? Roger: That's a fair point, Patricia. Not everyone will make it to Level 5, and you know, that's okay. Even Maxwell admits that. It takes a pretty rare combination of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, resilience, and strategic thinking—plus, a “real” dedication to developing others and always keeping the big picture in mind. But every leader can aim to get as close as possible by constantly learning and improving. Patricia: So, even if you don’t quite hit Level 5, the journey itself is worthwhile because every step forward has a multiplying effect, benefiting the leader, the team, and the organization? Roger: Absolutely. Leadership is a journey, not a destination. Each level has its own challenges and rewards, but the important thing is the progress. When leaders focus on building “real” relationships, consistent growth, and shared success, they're already making a difference, and that difference can spread further than they think. Patricia: Okay, Roger. So, to sum it all up, the “real” measure of great leadership isn’t just about personal power or individual achievements. It’s about how you connect with others, empower them, and create something meaningful that lasts beyond your own time. That's both a daunting and inspiring idea, isn't it?

Roger: Understanding how relationships work naturally leads to the larger impact of leadership. A leader's legacy sums up everything we've talked about so far—connection, growth, and results—but on a much grander scale. It's “really” amazing how this legacy lasts longer than the leader, shaping the organization and the community for years to come. Patricia: So, we're talking legacy, exponential impact, right? Let me guess, another pitch for mentoring and succession planning? Or is this another one of those "change the world" conversations where I should wear a cape? Roger: Alright Patricia, no capes needed! Although, Level 5 leadership is pretty amazing once you get it. Basically, leadership starts with growing yourself, but by the time you're at Level 5, it's not just about you anymore. It's about changing things together - mentoring new leaders, building cultures that encourage leadership everywhere, and setting up systems that keep things moving forward. It's leadership that lasts even after you're gone. Patricia: Okay, so a move from seeing a leader as just a "star player" to seeing them as someone who designs the whole playing field. But, how do you actually start building a legacy like this? Roger: Mentoring new leaders, that's the key. A Level 5 leader knows their greatest achievement isn't what they do themselves, but how they help others take over and keep moving forward. It's about helping others become better leaders on purpose, making sure things continue and grow. Patricia: So, what does mentoring “really” look like? Is it just those corporate workshops where people awkwardly shake hands and talk about their "personal brand," or is it more than that? Roger: Oh, way more. Take Jack Welch, for example. When he was the CEO of General Electric, he didn't just look at the obvious choices for leadership, he looked at the people who seemed unlikely to make it to the top. He divided his team into levels of leadership readiness and actively mentored people at all levels. One of those "long shots," Jeffrey Immelt, ended up becoming GE's CEO, leading the company after Welch retired. See, that's how powerful mentoring is—it finds and grows hidden potential. Patricia: So, Welch wasn't just covering his bases by mentoring everyone, he was actually building a talent pool. I like the practical side of that. But how does a leader handle mentoring when they're short on time and have to get results fast? Roger: Good question. It takes focus and planning. First, you have to identify potential leaders early on. The sooner you start, the more time they have to grow. Then, you need structured development where leaders are given chances to face challenges, learn from their experiences, and get regular feedback. It's not just a one-time thing, it's a long-term investment. Patricia: Right, so it's not about just handing someone the answers, it's about giving them the tools they need to succeed on their own. But mentoring seems like it works best one-on-one, so what do you do when you need to develop leaders across a whole company? Roger: That's where building a leadership culture comes in. The goal of Level 5 leaders isn't just to mentor a few people they work with directly, it's to create a place where leadership thrives at every level. Maxwell calls this the "Law of Explosive Growth": don't just develop followers, develop other leaders. When everyone in the organization feels empowered to lead, the impact grows exponentially. Patricia: Okay, give me some examples. I'm picturing CEOs of big companies pulling leadership seminars out of thin air. Roger: Well, some companies create leadership academies, which are formal training programs designed to teach leadership principles and embed them into the company's structure. These academies don't just hand out certificates, they let employees develop leadership skills, while working on real problems. And then, there are companies that encourage peer-to-peer mentoring, where new leaders teach those who are just starting out, creating a continuous loop of development and growth. Patricia: So, it's like a farm system, like in sports, where you're always developing new talent to step up. Roger: Exactly! And the cool thing about Level 5 leadership is that it's not about being irreplaceable. Actually, it’s about being replaceable in the best way possible, because it means you've succeeded in creating an organization that can run itself. Patricia: I see how that pays off. But, how does a leader make sure this kind of culture sticks? I mean, what's to stop the next person in charge from getting rid of it all for some quick wins? Roger: That's where leading by example with integrity and vision becomes “really” important – it’s a hallmark of Level 5 leadership. It's not just about the systems you've built, it's about the values you've instilled in the company. People who've seen you act with integrity will carry that forward, making sure the culture lasts even after you're gone. One of the best examples? Coach John Wooden. Patricia: Ah, the UCLA basketball legend himself! Let me guess, this isn't just about winning championships? Roger: Right. Wooden's legacy isn't just winning ten NCAA championships, it's his "Pyramid of Success." This framework outlined timeless principles like effort, teamwork, and loyalty that shaped his players' lives, not just their basketball careers. One of his players, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, has often said Wooden's mentorship influenced his values and leadership off the court just as much as it did on the court. That's how leadership goes beyond the scoreboard. Patricia: Okay, but let's be real, Wooden had decades to build his legacy. Not everyone has that kind of time. What can stop leaders from reaching that top level? Roger: That's a great point, and it's one of the biggest challenges of Level 5 leadership. The first risk is complacency. Leaders who become too comfortable or get caught up in the fame of being a leader often forget what's “really” important - continuing to nurture and empower others. Patricia: So, the danger of Level 5 isn't just failing, it's succeeding too much and forgetting how you got there? Roger: Exactly, Level 5 doesn't mean smooth sailing, it takes persistent humility to stay connected to the company's vision. And speaking of vision, that's the second challenge: staying focused despite outside pressure and distractions. A true Level 5 leader doesn't chase after vanity projects, they stay true to the company's core purpose. Patricia: It’s striking – this idea that at the highest level, leadership becomes almost invisible. Your “real” legacy is people operating seamlessly without you, like a well-designed machine. Roger: True leadership is most evident in its absence. When a Level 5 leader steps away, and instead of chaos, there's stability and continuous growth, that's proof of their impact. Peter Drucker famously asked, "Who will replace you?" That simple but powerful question is at the heart of a leadership legacy. If you've done the work to equip, empower, and inspire, your absence won't be the end, it'll be the start of something even bigger. Patricia: So, to wrap things up, Level 5 leadership isn't about being brilliant for a moment, having amazing stats, or even being charismatic. It's about building a lasting legacy—a culture that grows leaders, values integrity, and keeps going long after the leader is gone. Ambitious? Absolutely. But worth the climb? Definitely.

Roger: Okay, Patricia, time to bring this home. Today we dove deep into the “5 Levels of Leadership,” right? We started with Position—that's where you've got the title, but not necessarily the respect. And we ended at Pinnacle, where your leadership leaves a real, lasting impact. We talked about building solid trust at Level 2, finding that sweet spot between people and performance at Level 3, and then mentoring others to become leaders themselves at Level 4. Finally, Level 5 is all about creating systems and cultures that just keep on going. Patricia: Yeah, and what we figured out is that leadership isn't some quick win. It's a journey upwards, slowly building, level by level. It's not just about having power, or a fancy title - it's about, you know, genuinely connecting with people, helping them grow, and, dare I say, leaving the world a little better than you found it. Roger: Absolutely. So, here’s a little challenge for everyone listening: be real with yourself. Where are you, really, on this leadership path? Are you still hanging out at Level 1, thinking your title is enough? Or are you actively building trust, getting results, and helping others grow? Leadership comes down to the small things you do every single day. So, what’s one thing you can do, starting today, to level up? Patricia: That's a solid challenge, Roger. And, look, the point isn’t to be the big hero at the top of the mountain. It’s about building something that keeps going, that empowers other people to lead, even after you’ve moved on. Now, that’s a legacy worth striving for, right?