Mark: Michelle, what’s the worst career advice you’ve ever heard? Michelle: Oh, easy. "Fake it 'til you make it." Terrible advice. It’s a recipe for imposter syndrome and burnout. Mark: I'll top that: "When you fall, get right back up." We’re told it’s about resilience, but today, we're exploring a fascinating idea: that the smartest thing to do after a major setback might be to stay down for a while. Michelle: Okay, my interest is piqued. Resisting the urge to immediately fix things feels deeply counterintuitive. What are we diving into? Mark: We are exploring The Setback Cycle: How Defining Moments Can Move Us Forward by Amy Shoenthal. It’s a book that’s been getting a lot of buzz for its practical, research-backed approach to failure. And the author’s own story gives it this incredible layer of authenticity. Michelle: How so? Mark: Get this: Amy Shoenthal, who has a long career as a journalist and marketing consultant, spent years interviewing hundreds of leaders, neuroscientists, and psychologists for this book. She finally finishes the manuscript, all about navigating setbacks, and submits it. A few weeks later? She gets laid off from her full-time marketing job. Michelle: Wow. Talk about meta. She literally had to use her own book on herself, immediately. Mark: Exactly. It became the ultimate real-world test of her own framework. And that framework starts with this very idea—that our instinct to immediately jump back into the fray is often the first mistake we make.

Michelle: That’s a bold claim. Every movie montage, every sports story, is about the hero who gets knocked down and immediately gets back up, stronger than before. Why is that the wrong move? Mark: Because, according to Shoenthal, you haven't yet learned the lesson the setback is trying to teach you. The first phase of her cycle is called "Establish," which is simply recognizing and admitting you’re in a setback. Not fixing it, not spinning it, just acknowledging it. This is followed by the "Embrace" phase, which is about processing the emotions that come with it. Michelle: I can see how people skip that. It’s uncomfortable. We want to jump straight to the solution, to the "silver lining." Mark: And the book argues that’s a form of "toxic positivity." It’s the pressure to pretend you’re fine, to slap a positive affirmation on a genuinely painful experience. But if you don’t allow yourself to feel the disappointment or the anger, you can't analyze what really happened. You just paper over the cracks. Michelle: But isn't there a danger of getting stuck? Where's the line between "embracing the feeling" and just... wallowing? Mark: That’s the key distinction the book makes between reflection and rumination. Rumination is getting stuck in a loop, obsessing over what you can’t control. Reflection is actively analyzing the situation to learn from it. And the best way to do that is to look at a real-world example. The book opens with the incredible story of Reshma Saujani. Michelle: The founder of Girls Who Code, right? I know her as a huge success story. Mark: Today, yes. But her journey started with what she herself calls a "spectacular loss." In 2010, she was a young, ambitious lawyer who decided to run for Congress in New York. She was challenging a long-time, very powerful incumbent. Michelle: That takes guts. Mark: Immense guts. She ran a high-profile campaign, got national media attention, and raised a lot of money. She was seen as this fresh, dynamic new voice. On election night, she and her team were gathered, hoping for a historic upset. Michelle: And...? Mark: She didn't just lose. She was annihilated. The final vote was 81% for her opponent and just 19% for her. It was a public, humiliating defeat. She said she felt like her failure was a public spectacle for everyone to see. Michelle: Ouch. That’s a brutal setback. So, did she get right back up and run for another office? Mark: No. And this is the crucial part. She paused. She embraced the devastation. But in that period of reflection, she started thinking about her time on the campaign trail. She had visited a lot of schools, a lot of robotics clubs and computer science classes across her district. And she kept noticing the same thing. Michelle: What was that? Mark: The classrooms were filled almost exclusively with boys. She saw, firsthand, the massive gender gap in technology. It was an observation she only made because she was out there, in the community, running that failed campaign. The data she saw with her own eyes was stark—the percentage of women in computer science had been plummeting for a generation. Michelle: Huh. So the insight was a direct byproduct of the failure. Mark: Exactly. She said, "If I didn’t lose in that way, I don’t think I ever would’ve started Girls Who Code." The spectacular loss wasn't an obstacle to her success; it was the path to it. By pausing and reflecting on the entire experience, not just the loss itself, she found a much bigger problem to solve. And Girls Who Code has now reached half a million girls. Michelle: That’s incredible. It completely reframes the idea of failure. The pause wasn't about wallowing; it was about data collection. It allowed her to see the opportunity hidden inside the setback. Mark: Precisely. And the book gives a practical tool for this phase: naming your inner critic. That voice in your head that says "You're a failure, you're a fraud." Michelle: Oh, I know that voice. Mine sounds suspiciously like a disappointed high school gym teacher. Mark: (laughs) Exactly! Shoenthal suggests giving it a name—like "Mamarazzi" or "Raz" in one example from the book. By personifying it, you create distance. It’s not you saying you're a failure; it's just Raz being annoying again. You can acknowledge the voice without letting it drive the car. It turns the "asshole in your head" into just one data point, not the whole truth. Michelle: I like that. It’s not about silencing the voice, but about putting it in its place. Okay, so the pause gives you clarity. You've named your inner critic. But how do you find the next thing? It's not like "Girls Who Code" just appeared in a dream.

Mark: It didn't. And that brings us to the third phase of the cycle: "Explore." This is where you actively cultivate curiosity. The book argues that after a setback, our identity can feel threatened. We think, "If I'm not a political candidate, who am I?" The Explore phase is about detaching from that old identity and just getting curious about... anything. Michelle: That sounds a bit vague. "Get curious"? What does that actually mean in practice? Mark: It means giving yourself permission to follow small, seemingly random threads of interest without any pressure for them to lead somewhere. And the book has another perfect story for this: Stacy London. Michelle: The host of What Not to Wear! An icon. I can't imagine her having a setback. She was the definition of success. Mark: For a long time, she was. Her identity was "that girl from What Not to Wear." But as she approached her late forties, the industry started to change. The fashion campaigns dried up. TV networks rejected her pitches for shows about middle age. Her core identity was being stripped away. She was asking herself, "If I'm not that girl, who am I?" Michelle: That’s a terrifying question when your entire career has been built on one specific persona. Mark: It was a full-blown identity crisis. And on top of that, she started experiencing a host of bizarre physical symptoms. Brain fog, anxiety, aches. She went to doctors, but they were dismissive. Michelle: This sounds like the experience of almost every woman I know over 40 who has tried to get a straight answer from a doctor. Mark: The book actually cites the data on this. Women's pain is systematically under-treated and often misdiagnosed as psychological. But Stacy didn't accept it. She got curious. She started doing her own research, digging into medical journals, and connecting the dots between her symptoms. Michelle: And what did she find? Mark: She realized she was in perimenopause. And as she dug deeper, she discovered this massive, gaping hole in the market. Millions of women were going through this, but there was a profound lack of resources, conversation, and effective products. It was a completely underserved, stigmatized space. Michelle: So her curiosity about her own health uncovered a huge business opportunity. Mark: A monumental one. She ended up acquiring a company called State of Menopause, becoming its CEO, and rebranding herself as a powerful advocate for women in midlife. She used her platform to destigmatize menopause, and her new show idea about it was eventually picked up. She found a new, more meaningful purpose, all by following a thread of personal curiosity. Michelle: That’s a powerful pivot. It wasn't about trying to get her old job back; it was about exploring a new problem that she was uniquely positioned to solve. Mark: And that’s where the book introduces the concept of a "superpower." It's not just a talent. A neuroscientist in the book, Chantel Prat, defines it as the intersection of what you're good at and what you are deeply, intrinsically motivated to do. It’s what feels effortless to you but is a struggle for others. Michelle: I love that distinction. It’s not just about skill; it’s about the drive. The book uses the analogy of Dottie and Kit from A League of Their Own, right? Mark: Yes! Dottie had all the natural talent but lacked the passion. Baseball was just something she was good at. Kit, her sister, had less natural talent but an all-consuming love for the game. Her motivation was her superpower. Stacy London’s superpower wasn't just fashion; it was her ability to connect with women and make them feel seen. She just aimed that superpower at a new target. Michelle: These are amazing comeback stories, but they feel... huge. Founding Girls Who Code, becoming a CEO. What about for the rest of us? How do you actually start emerging from the fog of a setback?

Mark: This is where the fourth and final phase, "Emerge," comes in. It’s the most action-oriented part of the cycle, and often the scariest. It’s about taking all the insights from your pause and exploration and turning them into a concrete plan. Michelle: The "rubber hits the road" moment. I can see why people get stuck here. It’s safer to just keep exploring forever. Mark: It is. And that’s why the book provides some very practical scaffolding. The first tool is called the "Have, Do, Be" framework. You simply make three lists: What do I want to have in my life? What do I want to do? And who do I want to be? This acts as your North Star. Michelle: So it’s a personal mission statement, broken down. Mark: Exactly. And once you have that, you use the second tool: "ABC Scenario Planning." This is brilliant. Plan A is your dream scenario—the ambitious, ideal outcome. Michelle: Okay, the dream job, the perfect relationship, the bestselling novel. Mark: Right. But then you create Plan B. Plan B is a solid, valuable, and more attainable alternative. It’s a pivot that still aligns with your "Have, Do, Be" goals. And finally, you create Plan C. Plan C is your safety net. It’s the plan that ensures you can pay your bills and stay safe if both A and B fall through. Michelle: So Plan A is the dream job in a new city. Plan B is a good-enough job in your current city. And Plan C is 'move back in with my parents and freelance for a while.' Mark: You've got it. The genius of this is that it normalizes pivoting. If Plan A doesn't work out, you don't feel like a failure. You just move to Plan B. It gives you flexibility and psychological safety. And the story of chef Palak Patel illustrates this perfectly. Michelle: Tell me. Mark: Palak was an acclaimed chef. In late 2019, she was on the verge of opening her dream restaurant in a high-end development in New York City. She had investors, a lease, a full concept. It was her Plan A, the culmination of a decade of work. Michelle: I have a bad feeling about this, given the year. Mark: Your feeling is correct. In early 2020, just as she was finalizing everything, the pandemic hit. The city shut down. Her investors, spooked, pulled out. Her dream evaporated overnight. Michelle: Devastating. Mark: Completely. She packed a single bag and flew home to Atlanta to stay with her parents in her childhood bedroom, thinking it would be for a few weeks. Those weeks turned into months. She was back where she started, feeling like a total failure. Her Plan A was in ashes. Michelle: So what was her Plan B? Mark: For a while, there wasn't one. She was in the Embrace phase, just dealing with the "shattering" of her life. But eventually, she started exploring. She was in Atlanta, not New York. The fine-dining world was on hold. She started thinking about what she could do there. She discovered a new food hall was opening and there was an empty stall. It wasn't her grand NYC restaurant, but it was something. Michelle: A Plan B. Or maybe even a Plan C. Mark: Exactly. She decided to open a small, simple Indian street food stall called Dash and Chutney. And it took off. She found that she loved the creative freedom, the lower stress, the connection to her family. In three years in Atlanta, she wrote a cookbook, bought a house, and built a beloved restaurant. She said she accomplished more, and was happier, than in ten years in New York. She had to "burn this shit down to build it back up again." Michelle: Wow. So emerging wasn't about resurrecting the old dream. It was about building a new, and ultimately better, one from the rubble.

Mark: And that’s the central, powerful message of The Setback Cycle. It’s not about bouncing back to where you were. It’s about using the energy of the fall to launch yourself somewhere entirely new, and often, somewhere far better. Reshma Saujani's political loss led to a global movement. Stacy London's career rejection led to her championing an entire generation of women. Palak Patel's lost restaurant led to a more fulfilling life. Michelle: The setback isn't the end of the story; it's the inciting incident for a new one. It forces you to pause, get curious, and redefine what success even means to you. It’s a forced evolution. Mark: A creative rebirth, as the book calls it. And it's a cycle. You'll go through it again and again. But once you have the framework, you can navigate it with intention instead of fear. You learn to trust the process. Michelle: That’s a really hopeful way to look at the inevitable challenges of life. It makes me think about my own life. What's a 'spectacular loss' in your own life that, looking back, actually opened a new door you never would have seen otherwise? Mark: That's a powerful question for all of us to consider. We encourage our listeners to think about that. What setback in your life turned out to be a setup for something better? Let us know your stories; we love hearing from the Aibrary community. Michelle: It’s a reminder that the most interesting chapters often begin right after the plot twist we never saw coming. Mark: This is Aibrary, signing off.