Dr. Celeste Vega: As a marketer, you spend countless hours building the perfect customer persona. You know their age, their job, their hobbies. But what if I told you that you might be marketing to a mask? A carefully constructed identity that hides a person's true motivations, fears, and desires. What if you could speak directly to the person the mask?

Dr. Celeste Vega: That's the power of the Enneagram, and it's what we're exploring today using the book 'The Road Back to You' by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile. Welcome to the show. I’m Dr. Celeste Vega, and with me is 橙子1223, a sharp and curious recent marketing grad who’s passionate about finding new ways to stay competitive.

橙子1223: Thanks for having me, Celeste. That opening question is exactly what keeps me up at night. We have so much data, but it still feels like we're guessing at what truly makes people tick.

Dr. Celeste Vega: Exactly. And that's why I think you'll love this. Today, we'll tackle this from two angles. First, we'll uncover this idea of the personality 'mask' and why understanding the motivation underneath is a game-changer for anyone trying to connect with an audience. Then, we'll get super practical and contrast two powerful personality types—the Challenger and the Peacemaker—to see how you’d tailor a message for their completely different psychological worlds. Ready to dive in?

橙子1223: Absolutely. I'm ready to look behind the mask.

Dr. Celeste Vega: Fantastic. So, 橙子, let's start with this idea of the 'mask.' The book argues we all develop a personality to navigate the world, but it's not our true, authentic self. It's an adaptation. How does that land with you from a marketing perspective?

橙子1223: It lands powerfully. In marketing, we call this a 'persona.' We build a profile: "This is Sarah, she's 32, she likes yoga and organic food." But that's a description of her behavior, her 'what.' It doesn't tell us she likes those things. Is it for health? For social status? To feel in control? The 'why' is everything, and it sounds like that's what the Enneagram is focused on.

Dr. Celeste Vega: You've hit the nail on the head. The Enneagram is all about the 'why.' The authors tell a hilarious story to illustrate this. One of them, as a fifteen-year-old, was with a group of friends in a wealthy Connecticut suburb. They were bored and impulsively decided to streak a golf banquet at the exclusive country club.

橙子1223: Oh no. I can see where this is going.

Dr. Celeste Vega: Right? The problem was, it was their town. They’d be recognized instantly. So, what did they do? One of the friends ran home and grabbed a bunch of ski masks. A few minutes later, six naked boys in ski masks sprinted through the banquet hall. The authors use this absurd story to make a brilliant point: we all wear masks, sometimes literally, to protect ourselves and navigate social situations.

橙子1223: That's a perfect analogy. The marketing persona is the ski mask. It tells you they're doing—attending a golf banquet, or in this case, streaking it—but it doesn't tell you the motivation. The Enneagram seems to be asking about the fear or desire that made them put on the mask in the first place. Are they seeking approval? Avoiding vulnerability? Rebelling against authority?

Dr. Celeste Vega: Precisely. The book quotes Frederick Buechner, who says, "The original, shimmering self gets buried so deep that most of us end up hardly living out of it at all." We live out of the mask. And as a marketer, if you're only speaking to the mask, you're missing the real person, and you're missing the chance for a genuine connection. You're selling yoga pants to the 'yoga lover' persona, but you're not speaking to her deeper need for peace, or her desire for community, or her drive for self-improvement.

橙子1223: This reframes everything. It suggests that the most effective marketing isn't about creating a better mask, or a more detailed persona, but about creating a message so authentic it bypasses the mask and speaks directly to that 'shimmering self' underneath. That’s a much higher bar, but the potential reward is huge. You don't just get a customer; you get a loyal advocate.

Dr. Celeste Vega: That's the competitive edge right there. It's moving from transaction to transformation. And to do that, you have to understand that different 'shimmering selves' are motivated by completely different things.

Dr. Celeste Vega: And that idea, that different people need to hear fundamentally different things, brings us to our second point: strategic empathy. The Enneagram outlines nine core types, each with a unique worldview. Let's contrast two to make this really concrete. The book calls Type Eight 'The Challenger' and Type Nine 'The Peacemaker.'

橙子1223: Challenger and Peacemaker. Even the names suggest they operate in different universes.

Dr. Celeste Vega: They really do. Let's start with the Challenger, the Eight. The book tells a fantastic story about the author's daughter, Cailey, who is an Eight. The family is at a dinner party, and her 13-year-old brother, Aidan, starts to share a story he heard on the radio. Before he can finish, a middle-aged neighbor launches into a harsh, politically charged rant, embarrassing the boy into silence.

橙子1223: Awkward. I hate when that happens at family gatherings.

Dr. Celeste Vega: The whole table goes quiet. But then Cailey, who is 22, clears her throat. The author describes it as a signal. She doesn't raise her voice. She calmly, methodically, and absolutely dismantles the man's entire argument, point by point. She's not being emotional; she's a force of nature. She's protecting the vulnerable, her brother. Her core motivation is to be in control of her own life and destiny and to protect the innocent. Eights are driven by a need to resist being controlled.

橙子1223: Wow. So they're motivated by justice and strength. They're not afraid of confrontation; in fact, they might even welcome it if it's for a good cause.

Dr. Celeste Vega: Exactly. Now, let's flip to the complete opposite: the Peacemaker, the Nine. The author's wife, Anne, is a Nine. He tells a story about her that is just as revealing. They're having his mother over for dinner at 6 p. m. Anne leaves to go to the grocery store at 3 p. m. Plenty of time, right?

橙子1223: You'd think so!

Dr. Celeste Vega: At 5 p. m., the author calls her, and she still hasn't even been to the grocery store yet. Why? Because on the way, she ran into a friend and helped her fix her bike chain. Then she remembered she needed stain remover, so she went to a different store for that. Then she saw a sale on bedding and spent time looking at that. She avoids the main, stressful task—getting dinner ready on time—by getting lost in a dozen smaller, less essential, and less stressful tasks. Her core motivation is to maintain inner peace and avoid conflict.

橙子1223: So where the Eight moves toward conflict to create justice, the Nine moves away from it to create harmony, even if it means their own priorities get lost. The difference is staggering.

Dr. Celeste Vega: It is. So here's the thought experiment for you, 橙子. You're the head of marketing for a new, high-end productivity app. It's powerful and has a lot of features. How do you market it to Cailey, the Type Eight Challenger, versus Anne, the Type Nine Peacemaker?

橙子1223: Okay, this is a great exercise. For Cailey, the Challenger, the message has to be about power, control, and efficiency. The copy would be something like: "Dominate Your Day. The Ultimate Tool for Leaders Who Execute." It's direct, it's strong, there's no fluff. The visuals would be bold, maybe black and white, showing someone in a position of power. You're selling her an instrument of control.

Dr. Celeste Vega: Perfect. And for Anne?

橙子1223: That same message would be absolutely terrifying for Anne, the Peacemaker. It sounds like pressure and conflict. For her, the message has to be about peace, ease, and simplicity. The copy would be: "Bring Calm to Your Chaos. Effortlessly Organize Your Life." The visuals would be soft, maybe with plants and natural light. You're not selling her control; you're selling her serenity. You're selling the the app will give her.

Dr. Celeste Vega: And it's the exact same product.

橙子1223: The exact same product! This is what's so powerful. We're not changing the features; we're changing the story we tell about them, to align with the deep, internal story the customer is already telling themselves. This is personalization on a psychological level. It's not just putting their first name in an email; it's speaking their emotional language.

Dr. Celeste Vega: And that, right there, is the Enneagram edge. The book's goal isn't to put people in boxes, but to give you a set of glasses to see the nine different worlds people live in. We've seen that we all wear masks, and that effective communication, whether in life or in marketing, means speaking to the core motivation, not the mask.

橙子1223: It really is a fundamental shift. It moves marketing from being about broadcasting a single, clever message to being about developing deep, strategic empathy for different psychological needs. It’s the ultimate tool for authentic connection, because you're showing the customer that you truly 'get' them.

Dr. Celeste Vega: You're seeing their shimmering self. So for everyone listening, especially those in roles like 橙子's, who are trying to connect with people, here's a challenge from the book. The next time you see an advertisement or a piece of marketing, don't just ask 'Who is this for?' Ask, 'Which is this for?'

橙子1223: Is it appealing to the Challenger's need for control? The Peacemaker's need for harmony? The Performer's need for success? The Helper's need to be needed?

Dr. Celeste Vega: Exactly. Once you start asking that, you'll start seeing the world, and your work, through a completely new and much more compassionate lens. 橙子1223, thank you so much for bringing your sharp marketing mind to this conversation.

橙子1223: This was incredible, Celeste. Thank you. I have a lot to think about.