Alex: Hey everyone, welcome back to the show! Today, we're tackling a universal life skill: negotiation. Seriously, it pops up everywhere – salary talks, family squabbles, even huge business deals. Negotiation is truly at the heart of it all. Michelle: Yeah, Alex, but let's be real. It's not just about having the "right" script. Sometimes it feels like walking into a three-ring circus. It's chaotic, you never know what's coming, and if you're not careful, you're juggling flaming torches without any backup. Alex: Exactly! That's why we're taking inspiration from Michael Wheeler's book, The Art of Negotiation: How to Improvise Agreement in a Chaotic World. He really reframes negotiation as an art. It's less about rigid plans and more about adaptability and creativity. Think of jazz musicians doing incredible riffs, instead of just music on a page. Michelle: Improvising sounds…interesting. But all that chaos can feel like a minefield. Why would we want to embrace it? Alex: Good question, Michelle. That's exactly what we're going to get into. We're going to break down five key areas Wheeler highlights. First, we'll look at why chaos isn't your enemy, but can actually be your ally…if you know how to handle it. Second, we'll discuss how solid preparation gives you a compass, even when everything goes sideways. Michelle: And we can't forget emotional intelligence. I like to call it the negotiator's "Spidey-sense"! Alex: I love that analogy, Michelle! Fourth, we'll dive into the ethical gray areas because negotiating isn't just about winning, it's about sticking to your principles too. And finally, my favorite part: How to turn every negotiation, even the ones that fall apart, into a learning opportunity. Michelle: It's a lot to cover, but we'll keep it real. Whether you're a seasoned dealmaker, or just trying to survive a debate with your teenager, hopefully there's something useful for everyone.

Alex: Okay, so picking up where we left off, let's really dive into how to embrace chaos and adaptability. Bob Wheeler uses this great analogy of negotiation being like jazz. You've got your basic framework, sure, but the magic really happens when you can riff, you know, just kind of flow and create something new in the moment. It's all about being creative and improvising. Michelle: Right, but Alex, improvisation works in jazz because everyone's, you know, in on the jam session. What happens when the other side isn't playing along? What if they're the person who insists on sticking to the setlist? Alex: That's a really good point, Michelle. But let's look at Jay Sheldon's story in the book. He didn't wait for the other side to change their tune, right? He adapted himself. He initially wanted to buy this cable company, but the seller wouldn't budge on the price. So, Sheldon took a step back, looked at the situation, and asked, "What if I became the seller instead?" Michelle: Whoa, that's bold. He completely flipped the negotiation just by changing his role. But isn't there a risk there? What if the seller had called his bluff? Alex: Absolutely, it’s a risk. But Sheldon wasn't just blindly guessing, right? He had presence of mind. He saw the dynamics, quickly pivoted, and really understood his own value. That's what Wheeler emphasizes: negotiators who embrace chaos see opportunities in those curveballs to innovate. Someone who's too rigid might have just walked away empty-handed. Michelle: Or walked away with their pride, depending on your perspective. But, okay, I see your point. His flexibility let him snatch a win from what looked like a lost cause. Still, just "embracing chaos" can't mean throwing structure out the window, right? How do you keep that from turning into utter… anarchy? Alex: No, definitely not anarchy! That's where tools like the OODA loop come in. It's Colonel John Boyd's model—Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act—right? It keeps you grounded while still letting you adapt. It's a loop, like a feedback loop, that helps you reassess and pivot without losing direction. Michelle: So, keep one foot planted while spinning the other in, like, a dozen directions. Sounds... simple enough. Alex: Think about Captain "Sully" Sullenberger and how he used the OODA loop when he landed that plane on the Hudson. Both engines failed–every pilot's worst nightmare! But Sully evaluated, discarded the impossible, and focused on what he could achieve. And the result? One of the safest crash landings ever. Michelle: Wait a minute, are you saying we all need Sully-level nerves now? Because, Alex, last time I checked, I haven't trained for emergency water landings. Alex: Right, most of us aren't facing life-or-death situations, but the principle works at any level. Chaos can trigger panic, especially when things don't go as planned. The OODA loop helps replace that panic with clarity—you observe what's happening, reorient your thinking, decide on a course of action, and then act. It's structured improvisation. Michelle: Okay, so instead of just winging it in chaos, you're... strategically improvising, got it. Fine, I'll concede that. But let's circle back a bit. Sheldon embraced chaos by pivoting, but can you be too flexible? I mean, isn't there a line between adaptable and just looking indecisive? Alex: Yes, definitely. And Wheeler actually warns against becoming too "go-with-the-flow" and losing the plot. The key is to stick to your ultimate goals but stay open to detours. Richard Holbrooke, the diplomat behind the Dayton Accords, called it "improvisation on a theme." You have your end-goal, your theme, but how you get there might involve some unexpected turns. Michelle: So chaos isn't the villain, rigidity is. Got it. And Holbrooke's phrase makes a lot of sense—it explains why some teams get stuck in negotiations. They decide there's only one right way to get an agreement, and any deviation feels like surrender. Alex: Exactly, right? When people cling too tightly to a fixed path, they miss opportunities right beside them. Tom Green's success against the tobacco companies is a perfect example. He faced massive complexity and conflicting interests. By staying open to the unexpected and seeing every interaction as a chance to learn, he turned chaos into a breakthrough collaboration. Michelle: Chaos as a resource—it's such a paradox, isn't it? But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. If you see every disruption as a new angle, it's less scary, more... useful. Alex: Exactly! It comes down to mindset. Sheldon's pivot with the cable company, Sully's calm in crisis, and Green's ability to bring everyone together all show that embracing chaos isn't about losing control. It’s about rethinking what control really means. Michelle: And keeping just enough control to not completely lose it, right? So, chaos isn't a monster under the bed—it's more like an unruly dinner guest. If you handle it right, they might actually bring something interesting to the table. Alex: Perfectly said, Michelle. Chaos challenges the old ways, but it also unlocks innovation. That's the beauty of Wheeler's idea—the tools he offers, like the OODA loop, help negotiators channel uncertainty into opportunity.

Alex: With adaptability as the foundation, the next step is understanding how to prepare effectively for negotiations. You know, preparation is like laying the groundwork for a building. You just can’t successfully improvise if you don’t have a solid structure in place to anchor your moves. Wheeler emphasizes that structured preparation isn’t just a checklist. It’s really a mindset that helps you face uncertainty with confidence. Michelle: So, preparation is the scaffolding for jazz, huh? I like it. But I'm curious—what does “structured” preparation actually mean? I mean, it's easy to say “be ready,” but how do you bridge that gap between “planning the perfect pitch” and “being poised when your counterpart throws a curveball?” Alex: Excellent question, Michelle. Preparation starts with understanding your baseline—that’s where BATNA comes in: Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. Essentially, it's your Plan B, the fallback you'll turn to if the negotiation doesn't work out. Knowing your BATNA helps you decide exactly when to compromise and, equally important, when to walk away. Michelle: Ah, BATNA—the “if all else fails” card. Good to have in your back pocket, of course. But let's put this into perspective. How do you figure out what a strong BATNA even looks like? I mean, unless you’re Jay Sheldon, who somehow had a golden parachute when his deal went sideways. Alex: Jay Sheldon is really such a fascinating example, isn’t it? Let’s break that down a bit for our listeners. Sheldon was trying to buy a second cable company for $12 million, but the seller wouldn’t come below their $15 million asking price. Now, instead of stubbornly sticking to the acquisition or giving up altogether, Sheldon pivoted. His BATNA was to sell his own company instead—and that’s exactly what he did for $14 million, walking away with a win even though his original goal fell apart. Michelle: It’s a cool story, but seriously, how do you feel confident enough to pull a move like that? That kind of pivot could blow up in your face if you misjudge the situation, right? Alex: That’s the beauty of having a well-defined BATNA—you’re actually prepared for the worst, and you know your limits. Sheldon didn’t gamble blindly; he evaluated his alternatives before walking into negotiations. Wheeler emphasizes that BATNA isn’t just a tool for reaction but also a strategy you develop proactively. If you understand your fallback options in advance, you don’t just negotiate—you negotiate with confidence. Michelle: So the moral of the story is: know your escape hatch before you start poking around the building. Got it. But here’s what gets me—BATNA keeps you grounded, sure, but can it really help you tackle risk? I mean, some negotiations aren’t just about fallback options; they’re a minefield. You mentioned risk assessment earlier—so, let’s dig into that. Alex: Risk assessment is definitely key to preparation, and one of the tools Wheeler mentions for this is the prospect matrix. It’s essentially a way to map out possible outcomes based on their likelihood and impact. By laying out a range, from acceptable compromises to stretch goals, you can figure out where to focus your energy. And, of course, what pitfalls to avoid. Michelle: Let me guess—this is the part where Boeing comes in, right? Alex: Exactly. Boeing’s experience bidding for Iberia Airlines is a cautionary tale. Iberia wanted proposals for a new midrange plane, and while Boeing knew Iberia was loyal to their competitor Airbus, they poured all their resources into their bid anyway. They sensed early on that Airbus had the upper hand, but went “all in” regardless. Airbus, predictably, undercut their pricing, and Boeing lost out—wasting both time and money. A solid prospect matrix could’ve helped Boeing see the writing on the wall, and avoid overcommitting to a longshot. Michelle: So basically, they bet on a thoroughbred that was just never leaving the stable. Ouch. But hindsight’s always twenty-twenty, Alex. How could they have balanced ambition with caution, while still giving it a shot? Alex: That’s where the prospect matrix really shines. By analyzing the likelihood of success versus the costs of pursuing it, Boeing might have better judged when to push forward and when to pull back, you know? And importantly, they could’ve earmarked resources for alternative opportunities instead of putting all their eggs in Iberia’s basket. Michelle: It’s interesting because what you’re describing isn’t just about math—it’s about mindset, right? A prospect matrix doesn’t solve your problems; it makes you see them more clearly. Alex: Exactly, Michelle. Tools like the prospect matrix and BATNA aren’t magic solutions; they’re frameworks to help negotiators stay clear-headed. Speaking of frameworks, the OODA loop is another powerful one Wheeler highlights. It’s designed to help you navigate uncertainty in real time. Michelle: OODA, right! Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. It sounds straightforward, but I can already hear people thinking, “Sure, but what does that look like when you're sitting at a table and someone drops a total curveball?” Alex: The best illustration is Captain Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger’s miraculous landing of US Airways Flight 1549 on the Hudson. Think about it—both engines failed shortly after takeoff. Sully had seconds to process unthinkable chaos. He observed the situation, recalibrated his approach to land in the river, decided on his best option, and acted decisively. Without this structured process, chaos could’ve led to paralysis. Michelle: Yeah, but Captain Sully also had, like, 20,000 hours of flight experience to back him up. What about us mere mortals negotiating a raise or trying to close a business deal? I mean, we don’t exactly get years of simulator practice before we’re tossed into the real thing. Alex: True, but the principle is scalable. Say you’re in the middle of a negotiation and suddenly the other side changes their demands. Instead of reacting emotionally or freezing, you observe their shift, reorient by reconsidering your approach, decide what trade-offs work, and act according to your goals. It’s about creating a feedback loop to think and pivot clearly in high-pressure scenarios. Michelle: Alright, I admit, the OODA loop sounds pretty solid. But here’s what I wonder: between BATNAs, prospect matrices, and OODA looping, is there ever a point where “preparation” becomes overcomplication? Is more always more? Alex: Absolutely—it’s all about balance. Eisenhower’s famous phrase comes to mind: “Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.” The actual plan might not survive first contact with reality, but the preparation process sharpens your instincts, and equips you to adapt, right? It’s not about having all the answers; it’s about being ready to ask the right questions when things change. Michelle: So the answer isn’t to over-plan, but to “plan smart”. Got it. Preparation isn’t insurance—it’s investment. And it sounds like the best negotiators know how to cash in when it counts.

Alex: So having prepped our strategy, we’re talking about the human side of negotiation now, right? The whole emotional intelligence piece. It’s where tactics meet people, Michelle, and understanding emotions – yours and theirs – can “really” change the game. Michelle: The “human element,” huh? Trading spreadsheets for feelings? Okay, I can already tell this is going to be an interesting discussion. But seriously, emotional intelligence – what does that even mean in the negotiation world? Is it just keeping a straight face, or what? Alex: It's way more than a poker face, Michelle. It's about recognizing, understanding, and managing emotions – both yours and the other party's. Think active listening, empathy, self-control... all crucial for turning potential conflict into teamwork. It's not about pretending emotions don't exist; it's about using them wisely. Michelle: Alright, you've got my attention. Let's start with this “listening” thing – active listening, you called it. What’s the “active” part? I mean, anyone can sit there, nod, and wait for their turn to talk. Alex: Exactly! Active listening is the opposite of that, Michelle. It’s fully engaging, absorbing what they're saying, and the stuff they’re not saying, then showing you get their point of view. It shows you value them, which can ease tension and open the door for real conversation. Michelle: Okay, but how does this work in tough negotiations? No one’s going to burst into song just because you’re a good listener, right? Alex: Think about a negotiator handling a big software contract, like in Wheeler's book. The other side was closed off, arms crossed, short answers – you know the drill. Instead of pushing hard, our negotiator actively listened, acknowledging the feelings behind the resistance. Things like, "This seems like a lot to take on – should we go over it bit by bit?" That shifted things. They became more open, and they actually started talking meaningfully. Michelle: Interesting. So, it’s not just about information; it's about disarming them, melting the ice. Makes sense. But does this always work? Or does it depend on the other person cooperating? Alex: It’s not a magic bullet, Michelle. But it’s super effective because it builds rapport and trust, which are key for resolving disputes. And they don't have to cooperate right away. You're just creating the space for them to do so. It's hard to stay combative when you feel truly understood. Michelle: Fair enough. So, listening… check. What about emotional regulation? Is that just staying calm under pressure, or is there more to it? Alex: Staying cool is part of it. But really, it's about managing your response, so you don't make things worse. Think of it as controlling the temperature in the room – keeping it from boiling over. Michelle: Got any real-world examples of someone nailing this? Ideally someone who didn't just meditate mid-negotiation. Alex: Donald Dell negotiating for Arthur Ashe is a great example. He was in this heated discussion, and the chairman went off – a total angry tirade, threatening to kill the whole deal. Instead of getting angry back, Dell used humor. He made a lighthearted comment that shifted the mood in the room. Staying grounded saved the negotiation and got them back on track. Michelle: Humor, huh? You don't see that in every negotiation handbook. But I can see how it works – if you've got the timing and the wit, that is. Alex: Exactly! It humanizes things, eases tension, and redirects the conversation's energy. But it's not just about being funny; it's about empathy, understanding where they're coming from, and making that connection. Michelle: Empathy… which naturally leads us there, doesn’t it? I’ll admit, it sounds like one of those "soft" skills. Does it “really” change a deal? Alex: Absolutely. Empathy lets you see their side – their emotions, motivations, even fears. Walk in their shoes, and you can tailor your approach, address unsaid worries, and find common ground. Like Karen's salary negotiation at QXData in the book. Michelle: Ah, finally – a scenario most of us can relate to. What went down? Alex: Karen wanted to get what she deserved but didn't want to seem greedy. She prepared by thinking through her own emotions and how her employer's budget might affect things. By understanding their perspective, while clearly explaining her value, she negotiated with confidence, secured a raise that worked for both of them. Michelle: So, Karen hacked the system with self-awareness and empathy. Clever. But what about all those unspoken cues you mentioned? The furrowed brows, the sighs that scream "this is a problem!" Alex: Exactly, Michelle! Recognizing those emotional cues, the nonverbal signals, tells you so much about hesitations or resistance. A good negotiator picks up on those signs and adjusts. If someone looks uneasy, instead of just pushing forward, something like, "Would you like to pause and revisit this point?" can “really” help. Michelle: It's fascinating how tiny shifts in tone or phrasing can steer a negotiation. It's like playing chess several moves ahead or solving a puzzle where the pieces keep moving. Alex: Precisely! Which brings us to humor! When Wayne Pacelle from the Humane Society met with Gene Gregory from the egg producers' group, humor surprisingly played a key role. It wasn’t about telling jokes; it was about breaking down years of hostility and creating a bridge for teamwork. Those lighter moments helped them go from enemies to partners, leading to federal regulations on poultry welfare. Michelle: It's counterintuitive, using humor in such a serious setting. But I see how it disarms people; it's like a social reset button. Alex: Indeed. The right kind of humor shows we're all human, eases tension, and opens the door for real talk. But, like all emotional intelligence tools, it must be used thoughtfully and strategically – never disrespectfully or carelessly. Michelle: Okay, so we've covered listening, empathy, emotional regulation, and even humor. What ties all this together? Is emotional intelligence something you're born with, or can you learn it? Alex: It's definitely something you can develop. Practicing mindfulness to increase self-awareness, improving active listening, learning to read non-verbal cues... these all help. And Wheeler stresses preparation here too – using techniques like reflective statements or grounding exercises to stay present and calm during negotiations. Michelle: So, it's not just a gift; it's a discipline. And judging by the examples, it's clearly at the heart of turning conflict into collaboration.

Alex: So, navigating interpersonal dynamics inevitably brings us to ethics, right? It's the bedrock of any sustainable agreement. This opens up a fascinating area: “Ethics and Long-Term Relationships” in negotiation. Basically, ethics acts as our moral compass, making sure we don't sacrifice long-term collaboration or our integrity for a quick win. It's not about being perfect, not at all. It's about carefully balancing what's right with our own interests. Michelle: Exactly, Alex. And that's where I get a little skeptical, you know? Ethics in negotiation almost sounds idealistic when we live in a world of power plays and exploiting loopholes. If everyone else is playing dirty, why stick to the rules if bending them gets you faster results? Alex: That's a fair point, Michelle. The key difference is the long game. Ethical negotiation isn't about winning a single battle, it's about building trust, a solid reputation, and lasting partnerships. And to help us find our way in those gray areas, Wheeler introduces us to two really helpful ethical tests: the universality test and the reciprocity test. Michelle: Okay, I'm intrigued. Tell me more. Alex: Alright. So, the universality test asks, "Would I be okay with this action if everyone else did it?" Like, if I think it's okay to take advantage of someone's lack of knowledge in a negotiation, would I be okay if someone did the same to me? Michelle: Got it. It's like asking, "Would I want to live in a world where this kind of behavior is normal?" So, what about the reciprocity test? Alex: Right, that one's a bit more personal. It asks, "Would I be comfortable if I were treated this way in the same situation?" It really makes you think about how your decisions might feel to the other person. Wheeler uses this example of selling a family cabin, right? The seller offered a price way below market value because they just didn't know what it was worth. The buyer could have jumped on it, sealed the deal, and justified it under the "buyer beware" rule. Michelle: But legal doesn't always equal moral, does it? So, what's stopping the buyer from just taking the discount and running? Alex: That's where these tests come in, right? What if that seller was a vulnerable family member? How comfortable would the buyer feel exploiting that? These tests force negotiators to pause and ask: Does this deal align with my core values? If not, that short-term win could cost you something much more valuable: your integrity and your good name. Michelle: Right, so ethics might get you points in the "long game." But I keep coming back to this: where's the line between being ethical and leaving money on the table? It's not just about personal morals, but what if you're negotiating for shareholders or a company? At what point does "doing the right thing" become "selling yourself short"? Alex: That's the million-dollar question in negotiation, Michelle: how do you balance being moral with looking out for your own interests? This is where the Humane Society and egg producers example comes in – one of Wheeler’s best, actually. For years, they were at each other's throats. The Humane Society was pushing for better animal welfare, hurting the egg producers' reputation and profits. And the egg producers were fighting back hard. Both sides were losing resources and getting nowhere. Michelle: So, a classic high-stakes war of attrition, right? What turned things around? Alex: Ethical reflection, actually. In 2011, Gene Gregory, representing the egg producers, started a conversation with Wayne Pacelle, head of the Humane Society. They turned these lawsuits into a productive dialogue by finding common ground. Instead of focusing on what they disagreed on, they looked for solutions, like lobbying Congress for national regulations that improved animal welfare but also made compliance easier for the producers. Michelle: Of course, both sides had to put their pride aside. I'm guessing the egg producers weren’t happy about tougher standards. And the Humane Society had to accept that compromise was necessary -- they wouldn't get everything they wanted. Alex: Exactly. Compromise led to collaboration. And what made that possible? Trust. Gregory respected Pacelle's consistency and transparency. And that allowed them to go from being enemies to partners. It wasn't charity; it was strategic ethics. This collaboration not only resolved the immediate issues but completely changed their relationship. It also reshaped the entire industry. Michelle: Strategic ethics – I like that way of putting it. Trust is almost like the ultimate currency. And building or losing that trust leaves its mark, doesn't it? Whether you're signing a contract or in a courtroom, your reputation stays with you long after the deal is done. Alex: Absolutely. Wheeler emphasizes that the emotional impact of a negotiation sticks with people. Dishonest tactics, like taking advantage of someone or having secret agendas, might get you a win today, but they'll cause problems down the road. Ethical negotiations, on the other hand, have a ripple effect. People want to work with people they trust and respect. Michelle: And trust is also deeply cultural, right? Wheeler talks about how in some places, a handshake means more than any contract. In cultures where relationships are more important than formal agreements, "your reputation is your signature" takes on a whole new meaning. Alex: That's a great point, Michelle. Some cultures focus on building social trust over time, through hospitality and shared meals, before they'll even put anything in writing. It goes back to that long-term vision Wheeler talks about. It's not just about getting a deal done, it's about building partnerships where everyone benefits. Michelle: Okay, so I have to ask: what if ethics run into a wall? Like, what if one side is determined to be difficult, or insists on only thinking short-term? Do you just walk away and hope for another chance later? Alex: Not necessarily. If emotions are running high, trust won't happen overnight. Being patient, transparent, and consistently acting in good faith – even if the other side isn't – can shift the momentum. But if the other side refuses to be ethical, walking away isn't a failure, it's sometimes the most ethical thing you can do to protect your own values. Ethical negotiation doesn't mean saying yes to everything, it means choosing long-term sustainability over short-term success, no matter the cost. Michelle: It really makes you think, doesn't it? Negotiation sounds like this competitive battlefield, but ethics? That's the bridge you keep building with the same people. Whether you burn it or strengthen it, the effects last for a long time. Alex: Exactly, Michelle. Ethical negotiation isn't just “the right thing to do”. It's an investment in relationships, systems, and reputations that goes way beyond the immediate deal. That bridge-building approach is something every negotiator should remember when they walk into a room.

Alex: Exactly, Michelle. So, finally, pulling all of these principles together leads to what I find most fascinating: thinking of negotiation as a lifelong skill. This idea of it being an ongoing journey really ties everything together. Michelle: Yeah, it does. But Alex, why does Wheeler push so hard for this notion of mastery as something iterative? Isn’t there a point where you can just say, "Okay, I’ve mastered this, I’m done learning"? Alex: Well, not really, Michelle. Negotiation, the way Wheeler frames it, is more like an art form or a really good craft that evolves over time. It’s about continuous learning and refinement. Think of it less like "reading a book once" and more like being a musician—practicing, improvising, and continually evolving. Each negotiation becomes a stepping stone for improving your skills, understanding the dynamics, and broadening your perspective. Michelle: So, it’s just like jazz again—constant experimentation, no fixed end. Got it. But beyond practicing, what specific tools does Wheeler suggest for refining this craft? I can’t imagine it’s all vague metaphors, right? Alex: Oh, no, he’s actually far more structured than that. One specific tool he highlights is keeping a negotiation journal. It’s about documenting your experiences: what worked, what didn’t, what emotions were involved, and any unexpected outcomes. By reflecting on these moments, you build a personal playbook that’s really specific to your own tendencies and strategies. Michelle: A negotiation diary? Seriously? You know, I’m picturing someone sitting in their pajamas at night scribbling, “Dear diary, today my BATNA was brilliant. Love, me.” No, but seriously, what does recording these moments actually do? Alex: It forces you to pause and reflect, Michelle. Think of it this way: let’s say you were negotiating a deal, and at one point, a well-timed silence made the other party rethink their position. Writing that down helps you consciously recognize how that silence shifted the dynamic. Then, the next time you’re tempted to fill an awkward pause, you’ll remember its strategic potential. Michelle: So it’s like coaching yourself post-game. But what happens when, instead of tactical brilliance, you record a cringe-worthy mistake? I imagine people might not enjoy revisiting their own failures. Alex: Oh, but that’s totally part of the learning process! Reflecting on those missteps actually helps you identify patterns. Maybe you notice that defensiveness creeps into your tone when a negotiation hits a roadblock. Or you realize that overconfidence after an early win makes you push too hard later. Awareness of those patterns allows you to adjust and, most importantly, to grow. Michelle: Okay, I can see the value in that. It’s kind of like athletes analyzing game footage. Humbling, but effective. So, what’s next? We’ve got journals for individuals—got it. But what about teams? I assume Wheeler doesn’t just leave the group dynamic to chance. Alex: You’re absolutely right. For collective learning, he emphasizes after-action reviews; they're like, structured debriefs where teams reflect on negotiations together. They are a way to evaluate the strategies used, identify both successes and failures, and refine the collective approach for future interactions. Michelle: Sounds like military-style debriefing. What does that look like in real life, though? Are we imagining a team huddling up to say, "Well, that didn’t go as planned"? Alex: Kind of, but it’s far more intentional than just venting frustrations. Take Richard and his team’s negotiation with a vendor that fell apart. During their after-action review, they realized two key missteps: first, their overly aggressive opening terms alienated the vendor early on. And second, they overlooked the vendor’s unvoiced concerns about long-term risks. Michelle: Wait—unvoiced concerns? That’s fascinating. How do you even identify a problem that never got articulated? Alex: Well, that’s part of the training, Michelle—teaching teams to tune into subtle cues, like hesitation or body language, during the negotiation itself. In Richard’s case, the team also recognized what they did well—using contingency clauses earlier on to establish some trust. So the review wasn’t just a post-mortem. It became a blueprint for how to improve their tactics moving forward. Michelle: So after-action reviews are more about actionable insights than rehashing who messed up where. By dissecting the past, you build a better future. But let’s circle back—how do you get a team to embrace the humility required to analyze their mistakes openly? People can be touchy about admitting fault. Alex: Well, that’s why trust within the team is so crucial. A good leader, like Richard in this example, sets a tone of collaboration rather than blame—emphasizing growth. When individuals see that these reviews aren’t about punishment but progress, they engage more openly. And over time, the process strengthens collective resilience and sharpens everyone’s instincts. Michelle: Alright, so we’ve got personal reflection through journals and collective growth through after-action reviews. So, now, let’s factor in Wheeler’s emphasis on mindset—this “growth mindset” he keeps referencing. Why’s that so critical to negotiation mastery? Alex: Because a growth mindset transforms how you see setbacks and challenges. Rather than perceiving failure as defeat, you see it as an opportunity to learn and evolve. It’s a concept popularized by Carol Dweck, and Wheeler adapts it beautifully for negotiation. Think about two negotiators: Richard, who views a failed deal as insight into handling power imbalances, and Margaret, who reflects on her overly assertive tactics even in a deal she "won." Both use their experiences to refine their approach for next time. Michelle: You know, it’s funny—the more I hear it, the more negotiating sounds less like a job skill and more like a way of life. Alex: And that’s exactly the point, Michelle. Negotiation isn’t confined to boardrooms or contracts; the principles apply across all aspects of life—parenting, navigating friendships, community leadership. By adopting a growth mindset, you start to see every interaction as a chance to practice and improve. Michelle: I imagine it also builds confidence, right? If you’re treating every setback as a rinse-and-repeat learning cycle, you stop fearing those "mess-up" moments. Alex: Yes! It’s totally empowering. And that ties back to Wheeler’s metaphor of jazz musicians—every performance is an experiment. No two improvisations will ever be the same, but every note you play teaches you something about rhythm, timing, and creativity. Michelle: Alright, Alex, this has been an enlightening ride. From documenting tactical wins to turning missteps into insights, I’m sold on negotiation as a lifelong skill. But one last question: how do you keep the motivation flowing for continuous learning, especially if the stakes feel low? Alex: That's a great question, Michelle. Motivation comes from recognizing that even low-stakes negotiations are mini-labs for refining your craft. Whether you’re haggling over something trivial like which brand of milk you want or something substantial agreeing on big decisions, it’s all practice towards being better at the negotiation table. The key is consistency. Treating negotiation as both an art and a discipline ensures you’re always building momentum toward mastery. Michelle: So, as Wheeler would likely say, every conversation, big or small, offers a learning opportunity.

Alex: So, that pretty much wraps it up. Today, we've been diving into Michael Wheeler's ideas about negotiation as this evolving skill—it's all about being adaptable, prepared, emotionally intelligent, and, you know, staying ethical while constantly learning. That jazz analogy “really” hits home, doesn't it? Negotiators who see each interaction as a performance, balancing structure with the ability to improvise, they're the ones who truly shine. Michelle: Right, and let's be real, negotiation isn't some strict science. It’s messy, it’s unpredictable, and packed with surprises—but that’s what makes it interesting, right? But as we’ve discussed, that chaos doesn't have to be a bad thing. If you're adaptable, keep your preparation solid, and “really” pay attention to the human element, you can actually turn those difficult moments into “real” opportunities. Alex: Exactly! Whether you're re-thinking your position in the middle of a discussion, using emotional intelligence to ease tension, or just reflecting on what you've learned afterward, each step helps you get better. Wheeler reminds us that negotiation isn't just about closing a deal—it's about building trust, finding solutions together, and, frankly, growing as a negotiator. Michelle: So, here’s a little challenge for our listeners: Next time you're heading into any kind of negotiation, whether it’s big or small, try to think like a jazz musician. Keep your goals in sight, sure, but be open to improvising. Observe what’s happening, adapt to it, and most importantly, ask yourself: How can I use this to get better in the future? Alex: Absolutely, Michelle. It’s more than just a high-pressure skill; it's a lifelong journey. Embrace it with curiosity and creativity, and honestly, the sky's the limit. Thanks for tuning in today, everyone. Remember, every interaction is a step towards becoming a master negotiator. Keep learning, keep growing, and keep negotiating. See you next time! Michelle: See you next time!