Mark: Most of us believe that hardship builds character. But a former Navy SEAL argues that for many, it just breaks them. The real secret to resilience isn't just enduring pain, but using it. And that's a skill we have to learn. Michelle: That’s a pretty bold claim. The whole "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" idea is practically a cultural motto. You’re saying it’s wrong? Mark: According to this book, it’s dangerously incomplete. That’s the core idea behind Resilience: Hard-Won Wisdom for Living a Better Life by Eric Greitens. Michelle: And Greitens is a fascinating, if complicated, figure to be writing this. A Rhodes Scholar, a humanitarian, and a Navy SEAL who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s quite the resume. Mark: Exactly. And that combination is key. The book itself was born from a series of letters he wrote to a fellow SEAL, a friend named Zach Walker in the book, who was struggling badly with PTSD and alcoholism after coming home from war. Michelle: Wow, so this isn't just a theoretical exercise. It's a lifeline. That makes the whole thing feel so much more urgent and personal. Mark: It is. The book is essentially a guide for anyone navigating hardship, using this very real, very raw situation as its foundation. And it starts by completely upending our common definition of resilience.

Michelle: Okay, let's start there. You said resilience isn't what we think it is. It's not 'bouncing back'? Because that’s the image everyone has, right? A rubber ball that gets squashed and then pops right back to its original shape. Mark: Greitens argues that’s a deeply flawed metaphor. Life isn't a rubber ball. When you go through real hardship—trauma, loss, failure—you don't just bounce back. You are fundamentally changed. The experience leaves a mark. A wound. Michelle: That feels much more true to life. You don't just 'get over' some things. They become a part of you. Mark: Precisely. And he uses this incredible story from Greek mythology to explain it. It’s the story of Philoctetes, one of the greatest archers in the Greek army, who was on his way to the Trojan War. Michelle: I feel a classic Mark story coming on. Lay it on me. Mark: So, on the way to Troy, the army stops on an island. Philoctetes gets bitten by a venomous snake. The wound on his foot becomes infected, it festers, and it smells so horribly that the other soldiers can't stand to be near him. So, what do they do? Michelle: Oh no. They leave him, don't they? Mark: They abandon him on a deserted island. For ten years, he lives alone, in constant pain, filled with rage and resentment. But here's the twist. The war drags on, and the Greeks can't win. They consult a prophet who tells them they need two things to conquer Troy: the magical bow of Heracles, and the man who wields it—Philoctetes. Michelle: The man they left to rot. Of course. That is some serious cosmic irony. Mark: Odysseus has to go back and beg him to return. And the core lesson Greitens pulls from this is profound: Philoctetes's gift—his unmatched skill with the bow—is inseparable from his wound. His suffering and his strength are two sides of the same coin. You can't have his power without his pain. Resilience, then, is not about erasing the wound. It's about integrating it. Michelle: Wow. So the wound is part of the power. That's a heavy idea. It’s not about healing the wound and forgetting it, but carrying it with you, and it somehow makes you more capable. Mark: Exactly. You move forward, changed by the hardship, not in spite of it. You become, as Hemingway wrote, "strong at the broken places." Michelle: It's a powerful message. But I have to ask, and I know a lot of listeners will be thinking this, it's hard to separate this wisdom from the author himself. Greitens’ own public life became very controversial years after this was written. Does that change how we should read this advice about carrying your wounds? Mark: That's a very fair and necessary question. I think it forces us to confront the ideas on their own merit. Can wisdom stand apart from the person who delivers it? For our purposes today, I think we have to engage with the text itself, because the framework he builds is incredibly robust. And it’s a framework that he argues anyone can build for themselves.

Mark: And that's the perfect pivot, because Greitens argues you can't just wish for resilience. You have to build it, almost like an architect. And the foundation of that building is identity. Michelle: What does he mean by that? Identity feels like something you just... have. Mark: He flips the common psychological script. Most of us think our feelings determine our actions, and our actions, over time, shape our identity. You feel sad, so you act withdrawn, and you become a withdrawn person. Greitens says to do the exact opposite. Michelle: Wait, how? Mark: He says you should first choose your identity. Then, act in accordance with that identity. And your feelings will eventually follow. It’s Identity, then Action, then Feelings. Michelle: Okay, that sounds a bit like 'fake it till you make it.' For someone like Zach, the friend he's writing to, who feels like an 'unemployed alcoholic,' how does he just 'choose' a new identity? That seems like a huge leap. Mark: It’s less 'fake it' and more 'act it till you become it.' He uses a story about the ancient Roman Stoic, Cato the Younger. Cato was born into wealth and could have lived a life of luxury. Instead, he chose the identity of a disciplined, virtuous citizen. He deliberately trained himself—walking barefoot in all seasons, eating simple food, enduring hardship—not because he had to, but to forge his character. He was acting in line with the identity he chose, and in doing so, he became that person. Michelle: So for Zach, it wouldn't be about waking up and saying "I'm not an alcoholic anymore." It would be about choosing an identity, say, "I am a courageous man," and then taking one small action that a courageous man would take? Mark: Exactly. Maybe it’s making one difficult phone call. Or going for a run instead of reaching for a drink. Greitens quotes the SEALs' mantra: "Humans before hardware." Your character is the most important tool you have. And you build that character one action at a time. It’s about taking radical responsibility, not for what happened to you, but for how you respond. Michelle: That feels much more achievable. It’s not about a magical transformation, but about the slow, hard work of building habits. One brick at a time. Mark: That's the whole philosophy. And that architecture is what you rely on when the real storms hit. The pain you don't choose.

Michelle: Right. So you build the identity, you take the action... but then real pain hits. A devastating diagnosis, the loss of a loved one, a global crisis. The kind of pain you can't control. How does this framework hold up then? Mark: This is where the book's blend of Stoic philosophy and SEAL training really comes to the forefront. The first step is to distinguish between what you can control and what you can't. You can't control the storm, but you can control the ship. Michelle: A classic Stoic idea. Mark: Yes, and he illustrates it with one of the most powerful stories of resilience I've ever read: that of Admiral James Stockdale, who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for over seven years. Michelle: I can't even imagine. Mark: Stockdale was tortured repeatedly. He had no reason to believe he would ever get out. He said the first people to die in the camps were the optimists. The ones who kept saying, "We'll be out by Christmas." Christmas would come and go, and they would die of a broken heart. Michelle: That's brutal. So optimism is bad? Mark: Blind optimism is. Stockdale developed what's now called the "Stockdale Paradox." He said you must maintain unwavering faith that you will prevail in the end, while at the same time, you must confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be. Michelle: It's brutal realism paired with absolute faith. That feels so relevant today, with all the uncertainty we face. It’s not about pretending things are fine. It’s about looking the ugliness right in the eye and still believing you can get through it. Mark: And Greitens offers practical tools for this. Things like "segmenting"—when a task seems impossible, like Hell Week in SEAL training, you don't think about the five days ahead. You just focus on getting to the next meal. Then the next. You break the unbearable into bearable chunks. Michelle: That makes sense. But what about the 'practicing death' part I've heard about? That sounds... morbid. Mark: It does, but it's not about being obsessed with death. It's about using the awareness of your own mortality to live with more urgency and gratitude. The philosopher Montaigne wrote about this after a near-fatal riding accident. He said the experience, floating on the edge of life, cured him of his fear of death. By 'practicing' it, by contemplating it, we unlearn how to be a slave to the fear of it. It frees us to live more fully right now.

Mark: So, when you put it all together, Greitens is arguing that a resilient life isn't a comfortable life. It's a life of chosen struggle. You don't find your purpose; you forge it in the fire of action. You don't wait for courage; you act courageously. And you don't fear pain; you learn to master it. Michelle: It’s a very active philosophy. There’s no passivity here. Everything is a choice, a practice, a discipline. It’s demanding. Mark: It is. He writes that the world will offer you excuses, especially when you've suffered. People who think you're weak will offer you an excuse. People who respect you will offer you a challenge. This book is a challenge. Michelle: The book is a challenge, really. It's asking: Are you the author of your own story, or are you just a character in a story someone else is writing for you? It's a tough question, but maybe the most important one. Mark: A perfect way to put it. And we'd love to hear what our listeners think. What does resilience mean to you? Have you ever had an experience that changed you, not by bouncing back, but by breaking and becoming stronger? Find us on our socials and share your story. Michelle: This is Aibrary, signing off.