Mark: Alright Michelle, I'm going to say a name: Tim Grover. What’s the first thing that comes to mind? Michelle: The guy who trained Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. I’m picturing someone who probably thinks “a light workout” is wrestling a bear. And is disappointed when you don’t win. Mark: You are not far off at all. That bear-wrestling intensity is exactly the energy that defines his book, Relentless: From Good to Great to Unstoppable. Grover, co-writing with Shari Lesser Wenk, essentially bottled up the psychological mindset he instilled in some of the greatest competitors the world has ever seen. Michelle: And it’s a book that people seem to either see as a bible for success or a manual for becoming a sociopath. The reception has been pretty polarizing, right? Mark: Absolutely. It’s praised for its brutal honesty but also criticized for promoting what some see as a potentially unhealthy, all-consuming mindset. And that's exactly what makes it so fascinating to talk about. The core of his philosophy is built around this one powerful, and frankly, intimidating idea he introduces right away: The Cleaner. Michelle: A Cleaner? That sounds less like a basketball player and more like a character from a spy movie who shows up to fix a messy situation. Mark: That's the perfect way to think about it. And according to Grover, it's a level of competitor that most of us have never even considered.

Mark: Grover creates this hierarchy of performers. At the bottom, you have "Coolers." They're good, they do their job, they follow instructions. Then you have "Closers." These are the stars, the people we all know. They're great under pressure. They can sink the winning shot when the game is on the line. Michelle: Okay, hold on. 'Closer' is a term we all know—the clutch player, the hero. That sounds like the top of the mountain. How is a 'Cleaner' different? Isn't that just semantics for being the best? Mark: That’s the brilliant distinction he makes. A Closer performs a specific task when called upon. The team sets them up, they execute, and they get the glory. A Cleaner, on the other hand, doesn't wait to be called. They take ownership of the entire chaotic situation from the start. They don't just finish the job; they clean up the whole mess. Michelle: So they’re not just the star player, they’re the player, the coach, and the general manager all at once, mentally speaking. Mark: Exactly. There’s a fantastic story in the book about Dwyane Wade during the 2012 NBA Finals. The Miami Heat were tied 1-1 with Oklahoma City. Wade was 30, his knee was shot, and he was feeling 'old.' He was struggling, and the pressure was immense. So what does he do? He makes a secret call. Michelle: To Grover, I assume. Mark: To Grover. In the middle of the Finals, he flies Grover to Miami. They're working out until two in the morning, not just on his knee, but on his mind. Grover’s core message to him wasn't about a new physical technique. He wrote a note he intended to give Wade, which read: "In order to have what you really want, you must first be who you really are." Michelle: What does that even mean in that context? Mark: It meant Wade had to stop being just a member of the "Big Three" alongside LeBron James and Chris Bosh. He had to reclaim his identity as a dominant, take-charge force. He had to be the guy who owned the team's fate. In the following games, Wade was transformed. He wasn't just scoring; he was leading with a ferocious killer instinct. He became the Cleaner, and the Heat won the championship. He didn't just close the game; he dictated the entire outcome. Michelle: Wow. So a Closer is like a brilliant specialist surgeon you call for a specific, difficult operation. They come in, perform perfectly, and leave. But a Cleaner is the head of the ER during a catastrophe—they're not just doing one surgery, they're running the whole show, directing everyone, and taking full responsibility for every single outcome. Mark: That's a perfect analogy. And Grover adds another layer: Cleaners are addicted to the result, not necessarily the work itself. They don't have to love the grind of practice, but they are pathologically addicted to the feeling of winning. It's a craving they have to satisfy, over and over again. Michelle: That addiction to winning sounds... incredibly intense. It makes me wonder what fuels that kind of person. It doesn't sound like it's just positive affirmations and vision boards. Mark: You've hit on the most controversial, and maybe most important, part of the book. Grover argues that every Cleaner is fueled by something most people are taught to fear and suppress.

Mark: He says that every Cleaner has a 'dark side.' This is the raw, primal, unapologetic part of them that refuses to be 'good.' It's the untamed instinct that drives them, and Grover argues that instead of suppressing it, you have to harness it as fuel. Michelle: Okay, 'embrace your dark side'? That sounds like a fast track to becoming a toxic person nobody wants to be around. How is that a good thing? Isn't he just giving people an excuse to be a jerk? I can just see people reading this and using it to justify bad behavior. Mark: That’s the pushback he anticipates, and it's a fair question. He uses the analogy of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The point isn't to let Mr. Hyde run your life and terrorize the village. The point is to have a switch. You need to be able to consciously and deliberately unleash that intense, predatory part of yourself when you're in the competitive arena, but—and this is the crucial part—you have to be able to put it away when you're done. Michelle: So it’s a tool, not a personality. Mark: Exactly. He tells this incredible story about Michael Jordan during a game in Vancouver. The Bulls were on a long road trip, they were tired, and Jordan was having a quiet game, only 10 points heading into the fourth quarter. A player on the other team, Darrick Martin, made the mistake of trash-talking him. He ran by the Bulls' bench and said something like, "I told you we were gonna beat you guys tonight!" Michelle: Oh no. You don't poke the bear. Or in this case, the GOAT. Mark: Jordan, who had been resting, just looked at him and said, "Let a sleeping dog lie." But Martin kept at it. And you could see the switch flip. Jordan's whole demeanor changed. He entered what Grover calls 'attack mode.' He checked back into the game, scored 19 points in the last few minutes, and the Bulls won. He didn't get angry or emotional in a chaotic way. He channeled that dark, competitive fire into pure, cold, calculated performance. Michelle: So the key isn't just having a dark side, it's having it on a leash? You choose when to unleash Mr. Hyde on the court, but you have to be able to put him away and be Dr. Jekyll at home with your family? Mark: Precisely. Grover says Cleaners control their dark side; it doesn’t control them. And that control is what allows them to access what he calls 'The Zone.' The Zone is that state of pure instinct where you 'don't think,' you just act. The dark side provides the raw energy, and The Zone is the state of focus where that energy is perfectly channeled. You shut out everything—the crowd, the pressure, the fear, your own thoughts—and just execute. Michelle: That makes sense. Thinking is slow. Instinct is fast. In a high-stakes moment, if you're busy analyzing, you've already lost. But it still feels like a dangerous line to walk. The book gives examples of people who couldn't control it, right? Like Tiger Woods, whose dark side spilled out of the competitive arena and into his personal life, with devastating consequences. Mark: Absolutely. And that's the risk. Grover makes it clear that this is not for everyone. It requires immense self-awareness and discipline. He tells another story about Charles Barkley, who famously threw a man through a plate-glass window at a nightclub. When the judge asked if he had any regrets, Barkley said yes: "I regret we weren't on a higher floor." Michelle: That's... a very Charles Barkley thing to say. But it illustrates the point. He's unapologetically himself. He owns his dark side, for better or worse. Mark: And that's the essence of the Cleaner. They know exactly who they are, they accept all parts of themselves, and they use every last drop of their being to achieve their goal. They don't apologize for their intensity because it's the very thing that makes them unstoppable.

Mark: So when you put it all together, you have this archetype of the Cleaner. This ultimate competitor who isn't just great, but completely owns the outcome. And they're fueled by this controlled, primal 'dark side' that allows them to shut out all the noise and just dominate. Michelle: It's a really challenging idea because it runs counter to so much of modern self-help and corporate culture. We're told to find work-life balance, to be collaborative, to be vulnerable, to be liked. Grover's philosophy is almost the complete opposite. It suggests that to be truly unstoppable, you might have to sacrifice being liked. You have to be willing to be feared. Mark: He has a great line: "A Cooler is liked. A Closer is respected. A Cleaner is feared, and then respected for doing exactly what everyone feared he’d do." The fear comes first. It's about commanding a space through sheer force of will and competence. Michelle: And it’s not about being the loudest person in the room. In fact, he says the opposite. The loudest guy is the one with the most to prove. The Cleaner is often silent, just watching, planning, and waiting for the moment to attack. That Michael Jordan locker room story is chilling—how he'd just walk into the opponents' locker room before a game, say nothing, and completely psych them out. Mark: It's pure psychological warfare. And maybe the takeaway for most of us, who aren't trying to win NBA championships, isn't to become a full-blown 'asshole,' as Grover bluntly puts it. Maybe it's about asking ourselves a tough question. Michelle: Which is? Mark: Is there a part of our ambition, our own personal 'dark side,' that we've been suppressing? That relentless, competitive drive we've toned down because we're afraid of what our colleagues, friends, or even family might think? And could tapping into that, with control and self-awareness, be the key to breaking through a plateau in our own lives? Michelle: That's a powerful question. It’s less about being a jerk and more about giving yourself permission to be fully, unapologetically ambitious. We'd love to hear what you all think. Is this 'Cleaner' mindset inspiring or is it terrifying? Find us on our socials and let us know your take. Mark: This is Aibrary, signing off.