Roger: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the show! Let's kick things off with a question I think a lot of us can relate to: ever felt like playing by the rules and being agreeable at work, you know, trying to avoid conflict, was the smart move, only to find yourself… well, overlooked? Undervalued? Patricia: Ah, Roger, are you talking about when “being a team player” morphs into, like, being the office welcome mat? Because yeah, that's hitting a little too close to home, I gotta say. Super frustrating. Roger: Exactly, Patricia! That’s precisely the territory Lois P. Frankel explores in her book, Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office. It's all about unpacking those ingrained beliefs and habits that kinda hold women back at work. But Frankel doesn’t just point out the problem, she actually gives us actionable strategies to confidently navigate the workplace. Patricia: So, a workplace GPS then? It points out all the wrong turns we've been kind of conditioned to make, and then charts a course to, I don’t know, Successville? What's the core idea here? Roger: Transformation, plain and simple. Frankel pinpoints how societal norms have shaped certain behaviors – like women apologizing excessively or staying quiet in meetings – and how those behaviors can actually undermine their career. But here's the good part: with awareness and the right tools, these habits can be unlearned. Patricia: “Unlearning” sounds nice, but it's also kind of vague. So, where exactly are we going with this conversation today? Roger: Great question! We're breaking it down into three parts. First, we're going to expose the hidden traps of those “nice girl” behaviors — those unconscious habits that keep women from moving forward. Think of it as identifying the booby traps laid out on your career path. Patricia: The traps that society basically trains people to walk right into, right? Roger: Unfortunately, yes. Then, second, we're going to dive into the power of assertiveness and networking. That's where the game really changes — learning how to command respect and build authentic connections in your professional life. Patricia: Networking...Always a classic. Because nothing says “authentic connection” like exchanging business cards at some forced cocktail mixer. Roger: I know what you mean, but third, we're going to talk about crafting your legacy. How to create a meaningful, impactful presence in your career. Basically, it's about owning your unique strengths and refusing to fit into some predetermined mold. Patricia: Okay, so we go from identifying the traps, to gaining the tools, and finally, building a stronger version of yourself—sounds like a career boot camp. I'm tracking. Roger: Exactly, Patricia. Ready to dive into this transformative journey?

Roger: Okay, let’s jump back into societal conditioning and how it fuels those self-sabotaging behaviors we see at work. It's so fundamental to understanding what holds women back professionally, you know? Patricia: Right. It’s not just individual stuff, is it? It's how culture quietly shapes us. Like a constant, subtle influence from day one. Roger: Exactly! These patterns take root so early. Think of all the messages many women hear growing up: “Be nice,” “Don’t be bossy,” “Share,” you know? They sound good on the surface, but they build a framework where being agreeable overshadows leading and being assertive. Patricia: So, it's like a cultural script that tells girls to shrink themselves before they even know what game they're playing. Got it. But how does that translate into actual workplace behavior? Roger: Great question. Let's look at Susan's example – from the book. She was a procurement manager, super competent, but her language was so telling. In meetings, she’d say things like, “I think we might want to…”, instead of just stating things directly. Patricia: Wait. So, even with 12 years of experience, her “cheery and agreeable” tone – which honestly sounds like a good coworker – made her seem less authoritative? Roger: Precisely. That’s the catch-22. Society rewards “niceness,” but professionally, that can be misread as a lack of confidence or leadership potential because of her hesitant language, excessive apologies, or avoiding directness. It's not about Susan lacking the skills, though, it's about her behavior reinforcing perceptions. Patricia: It’s like getting the message, “You're great, but not CEO material” without anyone actually saying it. Subtle, but brutal, right? Roger: Exactly! And that's where self-awareness becomes so critical. Frankel emphasizes recognizing these deeply ingrained patterns. So, why don't we move into solutions, starting with self-assessment? Patricia: Okay, so this is where we figure out how to stop sinking in the quicksand. What does the self-assessment actually look like, though? Roger: It's quite comprehensive, actually. Frankel gives you prompts and a scoring system to identify habits that might be holding you back. Like, “Do I apologize a lot, even when I don’t need to?” or “Do I hesitate to negotiate for what I want?" Patricia: Okay... But some people might say, "What's wrong with being polite or cooperative? Isn’t that just being decent?" Roger: That's a fair point, Patricia. There's absolutely nothing wrong with politeness. It becomes a problem when it prevents you from advocating for yourself. Women often hesitate to challenge decisions or speak up because they're afraid of being seen as aggressive. Politeness then goes from a strength to a limiting factor. Patricia: So, you've ID'd these habits. What now? Do you just quit them cold turkey? Roger: Not exactly. It’s about gradual, intentional change. Frankel suggests reframing your behaviors. For instance, if you have trouble speaking up in meetings, practice using decisive language. Instead of “I feel like this might work…”, say “This approach is the solution we need because…”. Patricia: Simple, but powerful. Words carry weight. A small tweak can change how people see you – and maybe even how you see yourself. Roger: Exactly! Language is one piece, but it’s also about challenging norms. Frankel talks about how childhood conditioning wires us for external validation—always trying to meet expectations. Breaking free means seeing assertiveness as self-advocacy, not aggression. Patricia: And I'm guessing that’s not just a mental shift – it's about putting it into practice in real situations. Roger: Exactly. Think low-pressure practice. Like returning a defective product or asking for clarification after getting vague feedback. Small stuff, but it builds the muscle for bigger moments – negotiating a raise, challenging a decision. Patricia: Like lifting five-pound weights before trying a deadlift. I get it. Roger: Exactly. This leads to another factor: the external pressures that make these habits worse – gender bias. Patricia, did you know women hold only 3.8% of Fortune 500 CEO roles? Patricia: Wow...just wow. Not because women aren't capable, but because societal conditioning plus external biases creates this...vicious cycle? Roger: Spot on. It’s not just internal stuff, systemic issues play a huge role. Stats show things like pay gaps – 77 cents on the dollar, less for women of color. Women often face double binds. Advocate for yourself, and you're "too aggressive"; avoid conflict, and you're "too passive." Patricia: So, you're either Scarlett O'Hara or Cersei Lannister, and there's no middle ground. How do you even navigate that? Roger: That's where enlisting allies and reshaping workplaces comes in. Frankel stresses building supportive relationships and reshaping workplace dynamics through assertive and collaborative communication. Like finding mentors, sponsors, and advocates who can amplify your voice and advocate for your advancement. Patricia: Okay, so something like calling out dismissive remarks in meetings without escalating things. Like, "That’s an interesting take, but here’s why mine more effectively addresses the core issue." Roger: Exactly. It’s about remaining calm, confident, and persistent. These choices add up, breaking down internal and external barriers. Patricia: So, you're not burning it all down, you're navigating strategically, piece by piece. Roger: Precisely, Patricia. Recognizing those ingrained patterns is the first step, and empowering yourself with actionable tools is what allows women to break free of them while also addressing larger systemic inequalities.

Roger: Okay, so once we get a handle on these ingrained behaviors, the real challenge is navigating the competitive landscape, right? That's where we put theory into practice. Overcoming biases, nurturing relationships, and mastering communication—it’s not just about surviving but actually thriving at work. Patricia: You're saying this is where all the "nice girl" stuff gets tested, huh? Time for a reality check, figuring out how to play the game without, you know, losing yourself in the process. Roger: Precisely. Frankel stresses that first, you have to understand the game itself. Workplace dynamics can feel like this invisible web of unspoken rules—knowing who to trust, how to advocate for yourself, and when to speak up. If you’re not aware of the rules, you're basically playing blindfolded, which… yeah, not ideal. Patricia: No way, not unless you're auditioning for some weird reality show obstacle course. So, give me an example of those unspoken rules, like one Frankel uses. Roger: Think of Barbara. She went from a relaxed, collaborative workplace to a super competitive industry. Her polite approach—listening more, avoiding conflict—was seen as indecisiveness. She realized she had to adapt to this more aggressive, results-driven culture to succeed. It wasn’t about yelling the loudest; it was about observing and engaging strategically. Patricia: Got it. And strategically engaging doesn't mean suddenly becoming a ruthless… whatever, right? What tools does Frankel offer for dealing with this cultural shift? Roger: She suggests three main things: watch successful colleagues, take on visible projects, and, most importantly, clearly communicate your accomplishments. Observation helps you understand the environment—who gets heard, how decisions are made. It’s not about copying, but aligning your approach with what actually works. Patricia: Workplace anthropology, huh? Study the tribe before you blend in. Roger: Right. Now, visibility means consciously putting yourself where your work gets noticed. Frankel finds that women often downplay their contributions, figuring their hard work will speak for itself. But it doesn’t always happen that way. Patricia: So, document what you do, mention it in meetings, and don't wait for someone to hand you a trophy. Got it. But Roger, honestly, doesn't this sound… exhausting? Tracking who has power, managing your image—it’s like playing some complicated chess game at work. Roger: It can feel that way at first, Patricia, but there’s a learning curve. The point isn’t manipulation; it’s developing authentic strategies that fit your values while building influence. Which brings us to emotional intelligence—it’s the glue that holds everything together. Patricia: Because you can’t just barge into a meeting and declare your brilliance without totally turning people off, right? Roger: Exactly! Emotional intelligence, or EQ, makes sure your assertiveness doesn’t become aggression or insensitivity. It’s about reading the room, handling emotions, and connecting with people genuinely. And it’s not just some trendy phrase—it’s a vital career skill. Patricia: I'm picturing a scenario: a big presentation. Two leaders, same prep and brains. One notices nervous body language from stakeholders and adjusts their pitch. The other plows through their script. Guess who wins? Roger: The one who adapts, definitely. It shows how EQ connects competence with connection. And Frankel breaks EQ down into self-awareness, empathy, and emotional regulation. Patricia: Okay, let’s break those down. Start with self-awareness. How do you spot your own blind spots? Roger: Look for patterns in feedback. Do people often say you need to speak up, or not take things so personally? Journaling helps too. Write about situations where emotions affected your decisions, good or bad. Analyze, don’t just judge. Patricia: And empathy? What’s that beyond just nodding when someone vents? Roger: Real empathy is active listening. You drop your own agenda, listen without interrupting, and then reflect back what you heard to make sure you understand. It builds trust and makes things clearer. Patricia: Emotional regulation, is that the "take three deep breaths before you email your boss in all caps" approach? Roger: Pretty much. It's about staying composed in stressful moments. Mindfulness or grounding exercises can help. It shows professionalism and stops you from overreacting, which could hurt your credibility. Women are often good at EQ, but Frankel points out that too much empathy without assertiveness can mean putting others’ goals ahead of your own. Patricia: So, let’s address the, um, elephant. Assertiveness. That's where people get stuck, right? Especially since society sees assertive women as difficult or demanding. Roger: Assertiveness is one of the hardest things to change because it challenges those deep-down fears of being disliked or judged. Frankel says it means expressing your thoughts, requests, or boundaries clearly and respectfully. It’s not about being aggressive—just being firm and direct. Patricia: Let me guess: Susan's story illustrates this perfectly. Roger: Exactly. Her habit of using minimizing phrases like "I think" or "it’s just an idea" undermined her expertise. When she switched to direct statements like, "I propose…" or "This approach solves the issue," people saw her as more authoritative almost instantly. Words matter, Patricia, and society trains women to use them cautiously. Patricia: Okay, but words are only part of it. What about when assertiveness leads to conflict? Like women being asked to do “office housework” like taking notes, for example. Roger: Frankel suggests practical techniques, like the “broken record” method. Instead of agreeing or getting frustrated, calmly repeat your boundary: “I think we should rotate note-taking so everyone’s time is respected.” Just stay firm without being confrontational. Patricia: Sounds simple but effective. Not a cannon, just steady, consistent pressure. Roger: Exactly—and add context when needed. If someone resists, try explaining the bigger picture: “This way, everyone’s expertise gets equal attention.” Patricia: So, the takeaway is: getting around the workplace needs awareness, adaptability, and clear communication. Strategy meets humanity.

Roger: So, with all these strategies, we turn our focus to building a personal brand. Which then grows into the bigger picture: it’s not just about surviving, but about thriving, right? And about thinking long-term, about the legacy you want to leave. Basically, personal branding and legacy building. Patricia: Legacy, huh? Sounds… intense. Are we talking career immortality here, Roger? Or just making sure people remember your name after you leave a job? Roger: A little of both, actually. It’s about figuring out how to stand out—not just as someone competent, but as someone with something unique to offer, something that aligns with their values, and creates an impact that lasts. Frankel actually breaks it down into three pillars: crafting an elevator pitch, strategically boosting your visibility, and mentoring others. Patricia: The elevator pitch—a corporate classic, right? But I'm guessing it's not just rattling off hobbies and hoping people are impressed. Roger: No way. An elevator pitch is about articulating who you are and what you bring to the table in a way that “sticks”. Frankel shares Debra’s story, a Director of Minority Recruitment. Debra worked on initiatives that boosted diversity and retention. Her pitch highlighted the numbers, a significant increase in minority hires, and showed how it meshed with the company’s mission. Patricia: I see. So, it's not just a list of accomplishments, but connecting the dots between her work, its impact, and why it mattered. Strategic storytelling, not a personal ad. Roger: Precisely! It’s strategic on three fronts: clarity—keeping it tight and focused, relevance—linking what you do to the company’s goals, and confidence—delivering it with conviction. It’s the difference between “Okay, cool” and “Wow, we need this person leading.” Patricia: Right, more like a professional highlight reel than a monologue. But a lot of people—women especially—feel weird "selling" themselves like that. Doesn't it feel a little… self-serving? Roger: That’s why Frankel emphasizes the results and the impact, not just "look how great I am." When your pitch highlights how your work benefits the team or the organization, it feels authentic. Not self-promotion, but storytelling with a purpose. Patricia: Okay, fair enough. So, actionable steps? How does someone build their elevator pitch? Roger: Start with who you are and what you do—your role, your expertise. Short and sweet. Then, share a key accomplishment or insight – something specific, with data or a story to back it up. For example, "My strategy reduced customer churn by 15%, saving the company $500,000 annually." And end with a forward-looking statement—what excites you or where you want to make an impact next. Patricia: Simple framework, could be really effective. Next, visibility. Roger: Visibility is about making sure you're “seen”. People assume hard work speaks for itself, but you have to put yourself in positions where your contributions come to light. That means stepping into high-profile roles or volunteering for challenging projects. Patricia: Easier said than done, though, right? Just "step into leadership roles?" Tell that to someone who’s constantly overlooked. Roger: That’s where adaptability comes in. Take Barbara's experience. She went to a very cutthroat industry where her collaborative approach was mistaken for passivity. She learned to share her ideas early in meetings and take visible ownership. It's not changing who you are, it’s about adapting how you present your value in different environments. Patricia: Find your lane, then learn the traffic laws. If directness is the workplace currency, make sure you’re banking those big moments. How do you avoid sounding boastful? Roger: Strategic self-promotion. Frame your wins within the context of the team or organization's success. Instead of saying, "I led this project," try, "Our team delivered X results, and my role was leading strategy development." You still get credit, but collaboratively and grounded. Patricia: Okay, last one—mentorship. Sounds like this is where the legacy part all comes together? Roger: Exactly! Mentorship is about creating a ripple effect. When you mentor, you reinforce your own leadership while investing in others. And when those mentees succeed, it reflects back on you as someone who fosters a culture of innovation. Patricia: It's like building a network of people who carry your professional DNA forward. I like that. But mentorship sometimes feels tricky: it sounds so selfless—what’s the personal payoff? Roger: A mentor's success is their legacy. Plus, mentoring enhances skills like communication and leadership, grows your network, and earns respect within your organization. Remember, a mentee’s achievements reflect their mentors. Patricia: Yeah, fair enough. Beyond traditional mentoring, what about risk-taking? Does that factor into building a legacy? Roger: Absolutely. Legacy isn't just about people—it’s about the risks you take to push boundaries. Frankel mentions that championing innovative ideas—even in the face of resistance—is a leadership hallmark. She gives the example of the young manager who saved her department significant costs by acting on her innovative ideas. Patricia: So, building a legacy is about being authentic but bold, right? Shaping your world, not just fitting into it. Roger: Exactly, Patricia. Crafting your elevator pitch, embracing visibility, mentoring, and taking some risks—it’s leveraging every opportunity to lead with purpose and ensure your career leaves a lasting impact.

Roger: Okay, so to recap, we've talked about how societal norms can, without us even realizing, hold women back. Then we dug into how assertive communication and smart networking can really help you thrive in competitive work environments. And finally, we touched on why it's so important to build a personal brand and create a legacy that truly reflects your strengths and values. Patricia: Yeah, and what “really” strikes me is that this isn't about some massive, instant change, or pretending to be someone you're not. It's more about understanding yourself, learning how things work, and then figuring out how to play the game your way. Whether it's swapping out wishy-washy language for confident statements, or, you know, taking on more visible roles, it's all about making your strengths shine. Roger: Precisely, Patricia. And for our listeners, the key takeaway here is this: Take a good hard look at your behavior, figure out what's helping you and what's holding you back, and then consciously start making choices that align with your career goals. We're not just talking about ditching old habits, but about actively deciding how you want to present yourself in the workplace and then taking concrete steps towards that vision. Patricia: And hey, don't be afraid to make some bold moves, even if they feel a bit awkward at first. Growth never comes from playing it safe, right? Start small—craft that elevator pitch, practice your emotional intelligence, or even just set some clear boundaries in a meeting. Roger: Exactly! This is your career, your journey. And every intentional step you take is a step closer to building that confidence, the influence, and the legacy you deserve. So, until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and remember—you've totally got this!