Josh: We often assume that to innovate, you need a groundbreaking new machine, a revolutionary patent, or some piece of tech straight out of a sci-fi movie. We chase these elusive, often multi-million dollar investments, believing they’re our only shot at a breakthrough. But what if that belief is fundamentally wrong? What if the very companies we idolize – Google, Facebook, Amazon, Uber – didn't start that way at all? Today, Drew, we’re overturning that notion, exploring a book that argues true innovation isn't about the next big invention, but rather a profound shift in how we see the world, and how we build. Get ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about making elephants fly.

Drew: Absolutely, Josh. And the author, Steven Hoffman, or 'Captain Hoff' as he's known, is uniquely positioned to deliver this message. He’s not some ivory tower academic. He’s been 'in the trenches' as he says, with the scars from his own venture-funded startups. But his authority really solidified when he launched Founders Space, one of the world's top startup accelerators. This gave him a ground-zero view into the patterns of success and failure across literally hundreds of global startups. Crucially, he’s also coached giants like IBM and Fujitsu. So, he speaks the language of both the scrappy startup and the entrenched corporation. That ability to bridge two completely different worlds is what makes his insights so rare and so powerful.

Josh: That’s a critical point, Drew, because it’s exactly those entrenched corporations, often bleeding money on failed innovation initiatives, that this book targets. So, for our listeners, today we'll dive deep into this from three perspectives. First, we'll dismantle the myth that innovation is purely about new technology, revealing where real breakthroughs emerge. Then, we'll explore why 'thinking small' is actually the secret to 'big' breakthroughs, challenging conventional wisdom on teams, budgets, and scope. And finally, we'll unravel the crucial cultural and psychological shifts required to genuinely foster innovation, helping you overcome the deep-seated fears that stifle creativity.

Josh: Drew, this book immediately grabs you by the collar by saying something so counter-intuitive to how we perceive innovation. It’s right there in his chapter title: 'Technology Isn't the Answer​.' As somebody who’s seen countless companies chase the next big piece of tech, can you unpack this 'technology trap' he describes?

Drew: It’s the book's foundational argument, Josh, and it’s truly disruptive. Hoffman argues that the entire corporate world is conditioned to believe innovation is born from a new patent or a proprietary algorithm – they fall into what he calls the 'technology trap.' He says this is a dangerous myth. He provides these incredibly compelling examples: Uber, Airbnb, Spotify, Dropbox. None of them, he points out, launched with groundbreaking, proprietary tech. Think about it: Uber didn't invent GPS or smartphones; Airbnb didn't invent online booking systems. Their genius was in what he calls "business model and design innovation." They simply used existing tools in a new configuration to solve a deep human problem.

Josh: So, it's about reconfiguring what already exists, not necessarily inventing something entirely new? This really flips the script on what many corporate R&D departments—and even venture capital firms—are pouring billions into. They’re often scanning for the absolute bleeding edge.

Drew: Exactly. Hoffman makes this brilliant distinction between the inventor, like Nikola Tesla who died penniless, constantly creating new things but never quite commercializing them. And the innovator, like Thomas Edison, who mastered seeing the business opportunity in existing or newly created phenomena. This book, he’s very clear, is a playbook for the innovators, not the inventors. It’s not about the elegance of the algorithm; it's about the elegance of the solution and its market fit.

Josh: That distinction is profound, because it reorients our entire focus. Instead of asking 'What new tech can we build?', we should be asking 'What deep human problem can we solve with the tech we already have, or with existing technologies combined in a novel way?'

Drew: Precisely. It shifts the emphasis from the 'what' to the 'how' and the 'why.' He uses another great example: Google didn’t invent the search algorithm concept, but they perfected the business model around it, making it accessible, fast, and then monetizing it through advertising in a way no one else had effectively done before. Their innovation wasn’t in inventing the internet, but in making it usable and profitable.

Josh: But what about the 'fast follower' strategy? If it's not cutting-edge tech, and it's largely about re-combining, can't companies just copy? Many corporate strategies are built on that, especially to avoid the cost of original R&D.

Drew: Hoffman addresses this head-on in Chapter 5, and it’s one of the most pragmatic and surprising parts of the book. He doesn't villainize copying. In fact, he calls it a potentially "brilliant business strategy," especially early on. Think about Facebook effectively copying Friendster's model initially, or early Chinese tech giants mirroring their U.S. counterparts to gain a foothold. The advantage here is speed to market and reduced risk. You learn from someone else's mistakes and refine their model.

Josh: So, in the early days, you can stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak. But there must be a catch, right?

Drew: There is a crucial pivot point. He argues that copying stops working once a market becomes globally hyper-competitive. At that point, as Hoffman writes, "It’s either innovate or stay a small fry." Necessity, he argues, is what truly forces a company or an ecosystem to pivot from imitation to world-class innovation. When everyone has copied everyone else, and the market is saturated, the only way forward is to create something truly distinct, something that solves a problem in a way no one else has imagined. That’s when you must transcend the 'technology trap' and find true business model and design innovation.

Drew: And that shift from imitation to true innovation leads us directly into Hoffman's core methodology, which is built on a series of powerful paradoxes. The first one, and perhaps the most radical, is 'Think Small.' Why is this so crucial, especially for large organizations, Josh?

Josh: It’s counter-intuitive, isn’t it? Hoffman argues that large, company-wide innovation​ initiatives often fail precisely because of their scale. They collapse under their own bureaucratic weight, drowned in committees, approvals, and endless meetings. The real breakthroughs, he shows, emerge from the smallest places, from agile, focused efforts. He gives the perfect example of the Post-it Note at 3M. This wasn't a grand project commissioned by the CEO. It was a scientist, Spencer Silver, who accidentally created a 'low-tack' adhesive while trying to make a super-strong one. It was a mistake, a small anomaly that an innovator, Arthur Fry, recognized as the solution for his bookmarks falling out of his hymnal. A small, accidental discovery turned into a multi-billion dollar product.

Drew: And he reinforces that with YouTube, which didn't begin as a global broadcast platform designed to revolutionize media. It actually started as a failed video dating site. The founders were just trying to share videos from a dinner party, and the frustration of not being able to easily do so led to the simple, small idea of a video sharing platform. It was born from a very focused, personal pain point, not a grand corporate strategy. It speaks to the power of starting with a very narrow focus.

Josh: But isn't the corporate default to assign a huge, cross-functional team, secure a massive budget, and launch a grandiose announcement to show that you're serious about innovation?

Drew: He argues against it forcefully, Josh, because his experience shows it's utterly counterproductive. For teams, he cites Jeff Bezos's famous "two-pizza rule"—if you need more than two pizzas to feed the team, it’s too big. Hoffman argues the psychology of small groups fosters higher trust, better communication, and more focused collaboration. And he even provides the ideal team DNA: what he calls the Hustler (the business lead), the Hacker (the tech lead), and the Hipster (the design or user experience lead). A small, complete unit.

Josh: And the budget aspect? That feels like another corporate sacred cow. More money equals more resources, right?

Drew: He’s even more radical on budgets. He argues that big budgets are toxic. As he puts it, constraints breed creativity, while abundance breeds complacency. The book delivers these powerful cautionary tales of startups like Color and Fab, which raised so much money that it allowed them to ignore fatal flaws in their business model until it was far too late. They had so much runway they didn't feel the urgent need to pivot. Less money, paradoxically, forces you to be more creative and find the right path faster because every dollar counts. It makes you scrappy.

Josh: And this 'small' philosophy extends to the project's scope and timeline as well? It feels like it applies across the board, from people to pennies.

Drew: Absolutely. It's about surgically focusing your resources. For scope, the principle is to do one thing exceptionally well. This is the core of the Minimum Viable Product, or MVP. Hoffman points to Amazon starting with only books, not global e-commerce. Google started as just that simple, clean search box. They mastered a small niche before attempting to conquer the world. They proved one thing, and then expanded. And for time, he invokes Parkinson's Law: "work expands to fill the time available." So you have to shorten the time. He advocates for "innovation sprints" that create urgency and intense focus, forcing a team to deliver something real, quickly. It's about getting concrete feedback, not perfecting an idea in a vacuum. Start like a stealth project, not a fanfare launch.

Josh: So you’re saying it’s about building a caterpillar, not demanding a butterfly.

Drew: Precisely. It’s about recognizing the potential in the small, seemingly insignificant beginnings, and nurturing them.

Josh: Drew, this 'think small' approach, this incubation of a 'caterpillar' for a future 'butterfly,' feels like it demands more than just process changes. It strikes me as a deep cultural and psychological shift within an organization, and even within the individual. How does Hoffman address that mindset change? It feels like the biggest hurdle.

Drew: It is entirely a cultural shift, Josh, and he boils it down to two core battles​ every innovator must win, both inside their own organization and, critically, inside their own head. The first is what he calls Challenging Your Beliefs. He argues every business, no matter how innovative or established, runs on a set of sacred, unstated assumptions. These are the 'truths' everyone accepts but no one questions – about your customers, your market, your product. They become invisible chains.

Josh: So, you have to actively dig those up, those hidden beliefs that might be holding you back?

Drew: Exactly. His "Captain's Method" is a deliberate process: force your team to list every single assumption about your business, your customer, and your market. Get them all out in the open, however uncomfortable it is. And then, systematically attack each one to see if it holds true, if it still serves you. It's an exercise in creative destruction of your own sacred cows. Are your customers really who you think they are? Is the market demand what you believe it is? Could it fundamentally shift?

Josh: That’s a massive mental leap for many organizations, especially those built on long-held traditions or past successes. But what's the second, and perhaps even greater, battle he identifies?

Drew: The second, and arguably far greater battle, is Overcoming Fear. Hoffman identifies fear of failure as the "bitter enemy of innovation." He correctly diagnoses that in most corporate cultures, managers are punished for failure far more than they are rewarded for success. If a project fails, careers are derailed, budgets are cut, reputations are tarnished. The rational choice for any employee, then, is to avoid all risk, to stick to the tried and true, even if it means missing opportunities.

Josh: And that leads to stagnation, doesn't it? It’s a self-preserving mechanism for individuals that collectively stifles the entire organization. How does Hoffman suggest we reframe failure so it's not a career killer?

Drew: His solution is to reframe the goal entirely, borrowing from the philosophy of Google X, their 'moonshot factory.' He says failure isn't the opposite of success; it's a critical, unavoidable part of it. He quotes their ethos: "Failures are cheap if you do them first... Failures are expensive if you do them at the end." The goal isn't to avoid failure at all costs. The goal is to fail faster and cheaper, because that's just another word for learning. It's about designing experiments that allow you to learn as much as possible with the minimum expenditure of time, money, and resources. You celebrate the learning, not just the success.

Josh: So, it's about creating an environment where learning IS the goal, not just preventing mistakes. That requires psychological safety and a systemic encouragement of experimentation over perfection.

Drew: Exactly. It's a fundamental shift in perception for leaders and individuals. If you can make failure a cheap, fast learning experience, suddenly the fear dissipates, and innovation can truly flourish.

Drew: So, Josh, if a listener—whether they're in a garage running a tiny startup or in a boardroom wrestling with established structures—is to walk away with just three core principles from Steven Hoffman's 'Making Elephants Fly,' I believe he'd want these ideas burned into their brain.

Josh: Lay them on us. What are the three essentials?

Drew: First: Iterate for Learning, Not Perfection. The goal isn't a flawless launch; it's maximizing the speed at which you learn from real customers. He quotes Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn: "If you are not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you’ve launched too late." Your key metric should be how many experiments you run per week, not how polished your initial offering is.

Josh: That’s liberating, isn’t it? It shifts the focus from anxiety about being perfect to excitement about discovery.

Drew: Absolutely. Second: Focus on Value Over Money. In Chapter 23, Hoffman argues, "Smart companies focus on value over money." He dissects how Google, Facebook, and Amazon all prioritized building an indispensable ecosystem for users first​. They created immense, undeniable value to lock in their audience, and only then did they thoughtfully turn the dials on monetization. They built a world people couldn't live without, and the money became a natural byproduct.

Josh: So, you create an indispensable solution, and the revenue follows. Build the 'attraction,' then figure out the 'ticket price.'

Drew: Exactly. And third, and for me, this is the most liberating principle: One Winner Is All You Need. This is from the very end of the book. You have to accept the brutal truth that most of your innovative ideas are destined to fail. The majority will not work. But that’s the acceptable model. You embrace the carnage, because one pivotal insight, one breakthrough winner, one true caterpillar that transforms into a butterfly, is enough to transform your entire business. That one success can offset countless small failures. It’s about patiently fostering a portfolio of experiments, knowing that a single, big hit is what you're ultimately aiming for.

Josh: A powerful and eminently practical message. It’s a shift from 'don't fail' to 'fail small and fail fast, to learn what works spectacularly.' Drew, thank you so much for guiding us through the profound insights of 'Making Elephants Fly.' Once again, that's 'Making Elephants Fly' by Steven 'Captain Hoff' Hoffman, available everywhere books are sold.

Drew: My pleasure, Josh. It’s a book that truly ignites new ways of thinking.

Josh: Fantastic. To our listeners, you know what to do. Get the book. Delve into these ideas, challenge your own beliefs, and embrace the learning that comes from every experiment. Until next time, go make something fly.