Alex: Hey everyone, welcome back! Today we're tackling a topic that touches everyone's lives, whether you're leading a team, a family, or just trying to make a difference. And that's leadership. But here’s the thing, what if real leadership actually has “nothing” to do with your job title or position? Michelle: Whoa, Alex, that's a pretty strong statement right off the bat! I mean, it sounds inspiring and all—very "hang in there" kitty poster—but is there real substance to that? Alex: Exactly, Michelle! And that's why Clay Scroggins’ book, "How to Lead When You're Not in Charge", is so refreshing. It challenges the traditional idea of leadership. Instead of focusing on authority, it argues that true leadership is about influence, courage, and being genuine. Michelle: Okay, I'm listening. So, no corner office required? Alex: Precisely! Scroggins makes a really convincing argument that anyone can lead, and it all starts with understanding that leadership is less about telling people what to do and more about leading yourself effectively. Michelle: Alright, sounds promising. So, what nuggets of wisdom are we digging into today? Alex: Three big takeaways from the book! First, we will see how leadership isn't about authority, it's about having the integrity to act, whether or not you're technically "in charge". Second, it's about understanding your own identity. It’s like finding your inner compass, it guides your leadership style. And third, Scroggins gives us four concrete, actionable behaviors—practical steps you can take to lead effectively in any situation. Michelle: I do love a good actionable list. And I'm guessing these behaviors don't require me to suddenly become a natural-born CEO? Alex: Exactly. This isn't about boardrooms, it's about the meaningful choices we make every day that build influence. Think of it as a roadmap, that help you understand yourself. Then it will help you to have real impact in the world. Michelle: Very intriguing. So, let's see if this roadmap can win over a skeptic like me, huh?

Alex: Okay, let’s jump right back in where we left off. Scroggins’ core argument, really, is that leadership isn’t about authority, it’s about influence. This kind of flips the traditional notion that you need a fancy title or power to actually make a difference. Michelle: I agree. Because honestly, we've all seen those managers—big title, zero inspiration. They couldn't motivate anyone, not even with free coffee as bait. Alex: Totally! Scroggins is super clear: people follow individuals, not titles. He boils it down to three key things: courage, integrity, and authenticity. Those are the real drivers, way more effective than any corner office. Michelle: Hold on a sec, Alex. “Courage and integrity” sound fantastic, but isn’t it easier to be brave when you've got the title, the authority backing you up? Alex: That's the trap! Scroggins actually talks about this—how he hesitated stepping up early in his career because he didn’t think he was “officially” in charge. As a student pastor, he waited for the official title before realizing he already had influence! Michelle: I bet those opportunities were slipping through his fingers while he waited, huh? Alex: Exactly! He missed chances to really connect and empower the students. He was stuck thinking leadership was something someone gave him. A hard lesson learned for sure. Waiting really does hold you back. Michelle: So people are just stuck on the bench waiting for the coach to call them in, when they could be getting in the game? Alex: Precisely! Scroggins insists influence requires no permission slip. Actually, some of history's greatest leaders acted entirely without formal authority. Michelle: Okay, I’m sensing a Martin Luther King, Jr. example coming... Alex: Bingo! Scroggins uses King as a perfect example. He wasn’t a governor, senator, anything like that. He had absolutely no political authority. But he led a transformative movement – all through influence, not authority. It was his courage to challenge injustice, his unwavering integrity, that inspired millions. Michelle: Don’t forget authenticity. King lived and breathed justice, nonviolence, and equality. That consistency tends to resonate—a lot more than a powerful title ever could. Alex: Exactly. King could connect with people’s deepest hopes and pull them together for collective action. That influence, built on courage and integrity, is far more impactful than any title. Michelle: Got it. But let's bring things down to earth a bit. How does the average person cultivate influence if they’re not leading, say, a civil rights movement? Alex: Great question! Scroggins has four practical methods for building influence. Michelle: A framework? I’m all ears. Alex: First, relationships. It starts with building strong, genuine connections with people. When they trust you, your ability to inspire and guide them grows naturally. Michelle: Makes perfect sense. Nobody follows someone they don’t trust. Alex: Exactly. Then there’s leading by example. That means modeling the behaviors you want to see in others--discipline, optimism, good problem-solving. Michelle: Like his Chick-fil-A cashier example. You know, the one who brought infectious enthusiasm to every interaction, set an outstanding example without being a manager. Alex: That’s the one! Third, initiative. Be proactive, instead of waiting for someone to tell you to lead. Michelle: This is where people get stuck, isn’t it? It feels so risky to take initiative without the official okay, especially without authority. Alex: Absolutely. But Scroggins says that’s what separates real leaders. Being proactive shows you’re invested in the bigger picture. Michelle: Right, influence favors the bold. So, what’s the final piece? Alex: Emotional intelligence. Leaders who have high EQ are able to recognize and manage not just their own emotions, but also the emotions of the people around them. It’s about creating a supportive, valued environment. Michelle: So, the old “just toughen up” approach is out the window, then? Alex: Definitely. People follow leaders who understand them, who appreciate them, not those who ignore or steamroll them. Michelle: That's a lot to think about. Overall, it sounds like influence is less about demanding loyalty and more about earning it. Relationships, leading by example, taking initiative, and emotional intelligence – that's a solid roadmap. Alex: It is. And the great thing is, it’s universal! You don’t have to be a CEO or pastor. You can use these principles in team projects, with your family, in community work—anywhere, really. Michelle: Okay, so Scroggins is really challenging the idea that leadership starts at some mythical “top.” If I understand correctly, it starts with you instead – your courage, your integrity, your willingness to act. Alex: Exactly right. You have to let go of waiting for the authority, and that's when you realize how much influence you're already capable of. The potential for leadership is always there.

Alex: So, that foundational understanding naturally brings us to another key area: identity and self-leadership. When we talk about leading without authority, it really starts from within. Leadership isn’t just about influencing others, right? It’s deeply connected to who you are, how self-aware you are, and how well you manage yourself. This part expands on the first by exploring the personal foundations of leadership, highlighting the internal work that’s needed to be truly effective. Michelle: Okay, identity and self-leadership—sounds philosophical, maybe even a little intimidating. Are we talking about deep self-reflection here, Alex? Or is there something more tangible to it? Alex: Definitely more tangible! Scroggins talks about five key pillars of identity that shape how we lead: our past, the people around us, our personality, our purpose, and our priorities. Understanding these aspects isn’t just about looking inward; it’s about building the internal clarity and confidence that allows us to lead authentically and effectively. Michelle: Alright, Alex, let’s break it down. Starting with the past – why does looking backwards actually help us lead in the present? Alex: That’s a great place to start. Scroggins sees our past as a kind of roadmap, showing us patterns, values, and lessons that shape how we see ourselves and interact with the world. He suggests reflecting on five high points and five low points in your life. Identifying those key moments helps you uncover how they’ve shaped your beliefs, decisions, and even your emotional responses. Michelle: So, a "greatest hits" and "worst flops" playlist of your life, huh? I get how that could give you some insight, but what if those low moments feel, well, too defining? Could someone get stuck seeing themselves as the "failure" or the "screw-up"? Alex: That's such a valid concern. This exercise isn’t about dwelling on those negative narratives or reinforcing them; it’s about identifying and reframing them. For example, Scroggins talks about how the integrity his father showed him and the belief his mother instilled became cornerstones for his own confidence and values. So even when those low points threatened to overshadow everything, re-examining them helped him see where he grew stronger. Think of it like a rearview mirror—you're not driving backward, but you're understanding how you got here. Michelle: Okay, so we're mining the past for clarity and resilience, not excuses or regret. Got it. What's pillar number two? Alex: Pillar number two is the people around us—our relationships, past and present. Scroggins emphasizes that these relationships are like mirrors, reflecting back how we see ourselves, and they directly influence the decisions we make. He shares the story of a friend who was stuck in a toxic work environment. Being surrounded by all that negativity clouded his self-worth until he proactively sought out healthier, more encouraging relationships. That helped him regain his confidence and get back on track. Michelle: That's so true. Sometimes, the people around us are shaping us without us even realizing it. That kind of toxicity can really creep in and leave you questioning your own value. But the flip side—intentionally surrounding yourself with people who energize you and challenge you in positive ways—seems just as crucial. Alex: Exactly. You’re basically building a network of encouragement—mentors, colleagues, even friends who remind you of your potential when you start to doubt yourself. Scroggins encourages people to regularly evaluate their inner circle. Who’s adding value to your life, and who might be silently taking it away? Michelle: A self-leadership audit of your relationships. Sounds tough, but probably a necessary reality check! Okay, so we've got the past and the people. What’s the third pillar? Alex: The third pillar is personality. It's all about understanding your innate traits—what drives you, how you prefer to work, and how you interact with others. Scroggins believes that knowing your personal wiring is key to leading authentically and effectively. He even suggests using tools like Myers-Briggs or StrengthsFinder to get insights into your tendencies. Michelle: Alright, I know those tools can be a bit controversial, though. I've heard people say, "You can't just box me into four letters or five strengths!" What would Scroggins say to that? Alex: He'd probably say that he sees these tools not as boxes, but as mirrors. They’re not about limiting you, but about helping you understand how you show up in the world. For example, if you discover you're highly detail-oriented, that's not a restriction—it's a strength you can use in your leadership. And it might also highlight areas where you can grow, like learning to be more flexible when needed. Michelle: Makes sense. So, it’s less about labeling yourself "introverted" or "too analytical," and more about unlocking actionable self-awareness that works with your leadership style. Got it. Alex: Exactly! And that leads us to pillar number four: purpose. This is the “why” behind everything you do. Scroggins reframes purpose as less about finding some grand, singular calling, and more about recognizing the importance of contributing to the good around you, no matter how small it might seem. Michelle: That's an interesting way to look at it. I mean, how often do people get completely stuck because they're searching for this cosmic purpose they just can't seem to pinpoint? Like, "Am I destined to cure cancer, run a non-profit empire, or...?" Alex: And that’s exactly what Scroggins is addressing! He encourages people to let go of that pressure and instead focus on immediate contributions—impacting lives, fostering goodness, building up those around you. He says purpose isn't some destination you'll reach in the future; it’s about daily, intentional actions. Michelle: Okay, so purpose is just showing up as your best self in the here and now. Got it. And what about priorities? That's the last pillar, right? Alex: Yep, it is. Priorities are what anchor you amidst life's chaos and guide your decision-making. Scroggins ties this back to your values, your faith, and your commitments. It’s about knowing what truly matters to you and letting that inform every step you take as a leader. For example, if humility and service are central to you, that’s going to shape how you respond under pressure or how you work with a difficult team. Michelle: Priorities as a moral compass. Making sure your actions consistently line up with your core values, even when the world's pulling you in a million different directions. Alex: Exactly. And when all five of those pillars—past, people, personality, purpose, and priorities—work together, you build a really solid foundation of identity. And that's what allows leaders to act with confidence and authenticity, no matter their position. Michelle: Alright, so you’re saying that effective leadership starts with understanding you—your story, the people around you, your natural inclinations, your "why," and what you truly value. It all adds up to a kind of internal framework for growth, right? Alex: Exactly. And here's the connection to self-leadership: once you have that framework in place, you’re ready to take ownership of your own growth. Self-leadership is about acting intentionally and being accountable to yourself, instead of relying on external validation. It’s about stepping into your influence without waiting for permission. Michelle: I see the thread now – you can't really lead others until you know how to lead yourself. And leading yourself means doing the work to actually know who you are.

Alex: So, with a strong sense of identity and self-leadership in place, the next step is “really” applying these principles in our day-to-day interactions. Scroggins calls it “Practical Behaviors for Leading Without Authority,” and it's essentially the bridge from those internal foundations to our external actions. He outlines four specific behaviors – practical ways we can step up and lead, regardless of our rank or official title. Michelle: Okay, so this part is where we move from theory to practice, right? From “know thyself” to actually doing something. I like that. Is this like, secret leadership hacks we're talking about or more like habits that anyone could build? Alex: Definitely habits. These are systematic ways to build influence and foster trust, all without needing to be the boss. The four behaviors Scroggins identifies are: leading yourself, choosing positivity, thinking critically, and rejecting passivity. Each one addresses a different aspect of influence in “really” practical ways. Michelle: Alright, I'm curious. Where do we start? Let's dig into that first one: leading yourself. What does that even look like? Alex: Leading yourself is essentially about taking full responsibility for your own growth–personally and professionally. Scroggins “really” pushes back against this idea that our development depends on our environment or external factors. He's saying that regardless of your boss, your workplace, or even a toxic environment, you are in the driver's seat when it comes to your growth. Michelle: Interesting. So he's throwing out the whole “it's not my fault” mindset? As in, yeah, your boss might be terrible, your team might be demotivated… but just sitting around and waiting for things to magically get better isn't exactly a winning strategy. Alex: Exactly! Scroggins argues that waiting for perfect circumstances is often just procrastination in disguise. He turns it around and asks, “What steps can you take right now to grow, even if the situation isn't ideal?” Michelle: Fair enough. But, let's play devil's advocate here for a second: what if someone's genuinely stuck in a situation that's so toxic it's draining every ounce of their energy? How can they even think about growth when the environment feels completely suffocating? Alex: That's a “really” important question, Michelle, because that's a reality for a lot of people. Scroggins acknowledges this and suggests starting small. For example, limiting your exposure to negativity – choosing not to participate in a toxic conversation, for instance. He shares a story about a young professional who was overwhelmed by a toxic workplace. Instead of just sinking, they took stock of their actions, set personal boundaries, sought out mentorship, and invested in building their skills. When they eventually left that job, it was because of careful consideration, not just out of pure frustration. That's self-leadership “right there” – being proactive and intentional, even when things are tough. Michelle: So, it's less about “gritting your teeth and bearing it” and more about actively creating opportunities for growth when and where you can find them. I like that. What kind of tools does Scroggins suggest to help with this? Alex: He offers two main tools. First, the “Lead Me Plan.” It's a structured approach where you define what success looks like for you over the next six to twelve months, break it down into smaller steps, and regularly reflect on your progress. Second, there's self-monitoring – things like journaling or weekly check-ins where you ask yourself, “What did I do today to grow? What could I have done differently?” Michelle: That's pretty practical. And, you know, that self-audit “really” forces you to stay accountable, doesn't it? You can't “really” improve something if you're not measuring it. Alright, what's the next behavior on the list? Alex: The second is choosing positivity, which might sound a bit cliché, but it's actually very strategic. Scroggins makes a point of separating positivity from blind optimism. It's not about pretending everything's perfect; it's about deliberately creating an environment where people feel valued and encouraged, even when things are challenging. Michelle: So, positivity isn't so much about “let's solve all the world's problems with a smile,” and more about being the thermostat instead of the thermometer, right? Setting the emotional tone rather than just reacting to it. Alex: Exactly! Scroggins even shares an example from a workplace where a team was under immense pressure because they'd missed deadlines. Instead of getting caught up in the negativity, one person stepped up with encouraging words, reframed the problem in a constructive way, and helped shift the entire team's focus towards solutions. That person's positivity “really” changed the dynamic in the room and ultimately helped them to collaborate more effectively. Michelle: I can see how that could be contagious. Panic fuels more panic, but genuine positivity can create space for creativity. Any specific strategies for actually practicing this without sounding fake or overly cheerful? Alex: He offers two. First, reframing challenges. Instead of seeing obstacles as setbacks, leaders train themselves to think, “What's the opportunity here?” That shifts the focus from failure to growth. Second, micro-positivity – small actions like thanking someone for their effort or acknowledging a teammate's contribution. They might seem small, but over time, those moments can “really” affect the group dynamic. Michelle: And I bet that also builds relational equity, right? People are going to be more willing to push through the tough stuff when they feel like they're valued. Alright, let's get to number three. What's next? Alex: Critical thinking. This one kind of balances out positivity by grounding it in realistic analysis. It's about challenging assumptions, identifying potential obstacles, and proactively solving problems instead of just reacting emotionally. Michelle: So critical thinking is like the reality check that keeps all the optimism from going off the rails. How does this play out in leadership, though? Alex: Exactly! Scroggins argues that leaders need to dig deeper than just the surface-level observations. For instance, he shares a story about when he proposed a new initiative, and it was initially rejected by his superiors. Instead of just giving up, he asked them strategic questions like, “What are your specific concerns?” and “What would make this idea viable for you?” By refining his approach and addressing their concerns, he was able to get their support and implement the initiative. Michelle: So critical thinking isn't just about pointing out problems, it's about collaborative problem-solving. Asking better questions to guide the conversation instead of just stubbornly arguing your point. Alex: Exactly. And Scroggins even recommends building a habit of asking “why” questions – like “Why isn't this working?” or “Why do we always do it this way?” – to “really” uncover the root causes of issues. He also stresses the importance of anticipation: leaders should assume that obstacles will come up and prepare contingency plans beforehand. That kind of foresight can “really” help innovative ideas get off the ground more smoothly. Michelle: Okay, we've covered self-leadership, positivity, critical thinking… what's the last behavior on the list? Alex: Rejecting passivity. This is about stepping up instead of shrinking back. Scroggins points out how people have a tendency to wait for permission or ideal conditions before they actually act on something, which often leads to missed opportunities. Michelle: Okay, but let's be real about this: rejecting passivity sounds great in theory, but taking initiative can be scary, especially if you're not sure how your actions will be received. Alex: And that's exactly what makes it so important. Scroggins argues that true leaders don't play it safe – they take calculated risks because they're focused on the bigger picture. You might remember his example of the “pool table mentality.” Michelle: Oh, the story about his grandfather rounding everyone up to move the pool table with the phrase, “Don't let it beat you”? That's a fantastic metaphor for leaning into challenges with determination instead of just hesitating. Alex: Exactly. It's about channeling your energy into action, even when things aren't perfect. Scroggins also connects this to servant leadership, where leaders are willing to take on the less glamorous or even difficult tasks, much like Jesus washing his disciples' feet. That kind of service inspires both respect and greater collaboration within teams. Michelle: So, this idea of stepping up isn't just about ambition, it's also about showing humility and a willingness to serve others? Alex: Absolutely. When you put them all together, leading yourself, choosing positivity, thinking critically, and rejecting passivity create a powerful framework for influence. These behaviors are practical, transformative, and, importantly, they're accessible to anyone who's willing to step into the role of a leader—regardless of their job title.

Alex: Okay, Michelle, let's bring it all home. Today, we've looked at some really strong ideas from Clay Scroggins’ “How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge”. And really, what we've learned is that leadership isn't about authority, right? It's more about influence, how you behave, and having the courage to act. You don’t need a fancy title; you just need to be willing to actually step up and do something. Michelle: Exactly, and we really dug into how important understanding yourself is. Knowing your past, your key relationships, who you are as a person, what you're trying to do, and what matters most to you – these are all critical if you want to actually lead yourself first. If you skip that soul-searching, trying to lead others authentically is like... well, like trying to herd cats. Alex: Exactly. And Scroggins gives us four clear actions to put it all into practice. First, lead yourself – take responsibility for your own development. Second, choose to be positive, it can really create an encouraging atmosphere. Next, think critically – ask smarter questions to solve problems effectively. And finally, don't be passive – don't wait for approval to actually make a difference. Michelle: For me, the real gem is that influence doesn’t need a title or permission. Anyone can use it if they're brave, consistent, and “really” mean business. Whether it's in a team discussion, a local project, or even with your family, good leadership begins by just showing up and being authentic. Alex: Exactly! So, listeners, here’s what we want you to think about: what's one small thing you can do today to start using these ideas? Maybe note down what you think about your identity. Or encourage someone around you. Or champion an idea you are afraid to champion. Step up, don't wait. Leadership starts now. Michelle: If you remember just one thing, make it this: leadership is not about the corner office or the fancy title, it's about influence and being bold enough to stand up and be counted right where YOU are. So don't wait to be asked. Start leading today.