Alex: Perseverance. We hear the word all the time, right? But how often do we really stop and think about what it “really” means to keep going, especially when things feel impossible? Michelle: Yeah, the good old "never give up" pep talk. But Alex, haven't we heard this a million times? Is there something different, something special, about how the Japanese see it? Alex: That’s exactly what we're unpacking today. We’re diving into ganbatte. And it's so much more than just "keep trying" with a Japanese accent. It's a whole philosophy—deeply woven into their culture, their art, their daily lives. Albert Liebermann’s book, Ganbatte!, does a fantastic job of breaking down this mindset of resilience and constant progress. He shows how it fuels success in business, an appreciation for imperfection, and even deeper relationships. Michelle: So, what you’re saying is, he's giving the gold medal to whoever is still rowing after the boat capsizes, no matter how bad the storm? Alex: Pretty much, yeah! We're going to look at it from three angles: First, what ganbatte really means and why it's so significant in Japanese culture. Second, how it drives mastery, like that sushi chef endlessly striving for perfection that seems almost unattainable. And third, how it turns setbacks into wisdom, you know, like mending broken pottery with gold – turning flaws into something beautiful. Michelle: Okay, I get the mastery and wisdom part. But let me guess, does this involve… a lot of patience? Alex: It does, absolutely. And by the end, hopefully, you’ll see that persistence isn’t just about overcoming obstacles. It’s about growing with them.

Alex: Let's dive into “ganbatte”. On the surface, it means "do your best," but it goes way deeper. It's not just about effort; it's about seeing struggle as essential for growth. Think of Hokusai's The Great Wave off Kanagawa. That image “really” captures the spirit of ganbatte. Michelle: The wave about to engulf those fishermen, right? So, life throws these monstrous challenges at you, and ganbatte is about… just paddling harder? Alex: Close, but there's more. The wave is life's adversities – huge, overwhelming. But look at the fishermen; they don't freeze up or try to escape. They put everything into rowing, facing the wave together. That's ganbatte – choosing action and resilience when things feel impossible. Michelle: So, it's defiance combined with teamwork. Is it basically just saying, “Keep going, the storm will pass eventually?” Alex: It’s that, plus a uniquely Japanese acceptance. The storm might stick around, and the struggle itself shapes you. Waves rise and fall -- it's a cycle. How you face that storm, it changes you, makes you ready for what’s next. Michelle: Okay, I get the cyclical part. But I can't help but imagine being soaked, rowing, and just thinking, “Can’t we be there yet?” Alex: Totally natural! That gets to another aspect of ganbatte: the saying "Ishi no ue ni mo san nen" – even sitting on a rock for three years will warm it. Michelle: A rock-warming saying? I'm listening. Alex: It’s about patience and how persistence transforms things. Picture a cold, hard rock. Uncomfortable, right? But sit on it long enough, the cold fades, the surface warms. That rock is the challenges we face. Michelle: Let me guess – stick with the discomfort, and eventually, it becomes... nice? Alex: Well, not exactly "nice," but you grow from enduring it. There's the Buddhist monk Bodhidharma who meditated unmoving for years seeking enlightenment. Extreme, but it just shows how challenges reshape us if we stick with them, you know, despite the discomfort. Michelle: Okay, but meditating for years sounds passive. If you don’t see progress, what’s the point of just… enduring? Alex: That's where the beauty lies. Progress isn't always obvious at first. Think about a new job. The workload, the culture, the learning curve – it’s like that cold rock. But if you keep showing up, making the effort, things change bit by bit. Eventually, the impossible feels doable, even fulfilling. Michelle: Alright, I see the logic. It's reframing discomfort as part of the journey. Three years on a rock is still a bit much, though... Alex: <Laughs> Fair enough. Let's shift to another layer of ganbatte that speaks to your point: “Makeru ga kachi” – losing is winning. Michelle: Wait, there's wisdom in failing? Alex: Yeah, but not how you think. Losing here isn’t defeat. It’s about knowing when surrendering leads to a bigger win. There's a story in the book about a Go master who throws a game to a beginner. Michelle: To boost their ego? Alex: Not ego, confidence. The master encourages the beginner to keep playing and improving. The short-term "loss" creates long-term gains: mentorship and that beginner's continued growth. Michelle: Interesting. Sometimes the "win" isn't all about you, right? It’s what you give. Alex: Precisely! It’s stepping back and prioritizing relationships or shared progress over personal glory. It requires empathy. Michelle: Okay, I like this one. Though I'm not sure I’d be so generous in a game of chess! Alex: And that’s where ganbatte gets nuanced – it balances perseverance with flexibility and humility. Which brings us to something else Liebermann talks about: facing what seems impossible. You know, that idea of, "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer." Michelle: Sounds optimistic, but a recipe for burnout, if you ask me. Alex: Not if you break it down. The book mentions Jordi Campoy, a musician who became a novelist. He spent years trying to get his book published, facing rejections constantly. Instead of quitting, he kept refining his work, step by step. Eventually, he got published and acclaimed. Michelle: So, the "impossible" wasn’t impossible... just felt that way until he made it doable. Alex: Exactly! Campoy “really” shows that, by sticking with it, what seems impossible “really” can happen. It's ganbatte in action! Michelle: You know, the more I hear about this, the more it feels like not just working hard, but working smart and deliberately. Alex: Absolutely! Ganbatte isn’t thoughtless effort. It involves reflection, collaboration, and adapting. It’s a philosophy of resilience that ties personal growth and working together. It reminds us that every wave subsides, every rock eventually warms, and you can learn from every loss.

Alex: So, building on that philosophical foundation, let's talk about how “ganbatte” helps us overcome adversity. This is where the theory meets reality, showing how resilience plays out in different situations. And one of my favorite examples really comes to life with Jiro Ono, the sushi chef legend. Michelle: Ah, Jiro! The guy who's dedicated his entire life to sushi, right? I think I've seen the documentary. "Jiro Dreams of Sushi," isn't it? His sushi allegedly costs more than my rent, and apparently, it’s worth every penny. Where does “ganbatte” fit into all of this? Alex: Well, his story is basically “ganbatte” in action. Even now, at over 90, Jiro still goes to work every single day, meticulously perfecting his craft. Even though he's at the top—three Michelin stars, global recognition—he still sees mastery as a never-ending journey. Liebermann describes how even something as simple as preparing rice is approached with incredible care. Michelle: Hold on, rice? Seriously? Isn’t that the, uh, simplest part of sushi? You're telling me this world-renowned master spends years perfecting rice? Alex: That’s exactly right. And that's what makes it so powerful. He truly believes that every single detail, no matter how small, deserves the utmost attention because it all adds up to the entire experience. His apprentices even spend years learning the basics, like making egg omelets, before they can even think about the more complex techniques. Can you imagine dedicating years to just one aspect of your craft? How many of us would actually have the patience for that? Michelle: Wow, years on eggs? I'd throw in the towel by week two, “laughs”. But, I gotta admit, that level of dedication is seriously impressive. So, he's not just making a meal; he's turning it into art through sheer persistence. Alex: Exactly! Jiro's story shows that no matter how routine or even mundane the task may seem, if you commit to improving and have the right mindset, you can transform it into something extraordinary. It’s that constant pursuit of excellence and that sense of humility, that really embodies “ganbatte”, you know? Michelle: I get it. But Jiro’s process sounds, uh, hyper-focused. Does “ganbatte” ever extend beyond personal mastery? What about how it connects to other aspects of life, beyond just work? Alex: That’s such a good question, and it actually leads perfectly into the spiritual side of “ganbatte”. Liebermann talks about the Kumano Kodō pilgrimage, which is a sacred trek through the Kii Mountains. It’s not just about physical endurance, it's also about reflection and resilience when facing challenges both literally and metaphorically, you know? Michelle: A pilgrimage, huh? Sounds like a lot of walking. So, how does that tie into “ganbatte”, other than just giving you sore feet? Alex: Well, the Kumano Kodō is so much more than just a physical journey. Pilgrims have to navigate tough trails and unpredictable weather, but the real challenge is looking inward, you know, confronting your own fears, your doubts, your limitations. So, “ganbatte” here means embracing every step as an opportunity to grow and to learn. Michelle: So, it’s not just about checking a tourist box or just "making it to the shrine," it’s about what happens to you as you walk—how each step changes you? Alex: Exactly! Pilgrims are encouraged to not just focus on the destination, but to really immerse themselves in the journey itself. The winding paths mirror life itself, in a way. Progress isn't always a straight line, and difficult times can actually give you some unexpected clarity. Michelle: I like that. It feels… balanced. You're not just pushing through the pain; you're letting the experience change you in ways you didn't even anticipate. Does the book talk about how people usually feel afterwards? Alex: Liebermann emphasizes that pilgrims almost never come back the same person. They often find themselves renewed—mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. It’s really the persistence through those physical challenges that helps create an inner calm and allows that profound transformation to happen. Michelle: Okay, I'm sold on the spiritual growth aspect. But let's bring it back to reality a bit. Does “ganbatte” apply in more practical areas, like business or innovation? Alex: Absolutely! Liebermann actually has "The Ten Ganbatte Rules for Entrepreneurs." They're not just abstract ideas—they're actionable strategies for staying persistent in your professional life. One of my favorites is the rule "Do It!" It’s all about just starting, even if you're not quite ready, you know? Michelle: So, like, classic "leap before you look"? Alex: In a way, yes. Entrepreneurs often get stuck, waiting for the perfect plan or perfect timing. But “ganbatte” says that perfection shouldn’t hold you back. Progress happens when you take action—launch that campaign, release that prototype, even when it feels risky. There’s wisdom to be gained by learning as you go. Michelle: And what if you fail? What happens then? Alex: That's where another rule comes in handy: "Getting it wrong is part of learning." Failure isn't failure; it's feedback. Liebermann uses the example of app developers. Initial concepts often don't resonate with audiences, but those "failures" provide data that helps them refine their products. So, in the end, persistence, combined with adaptability, is the recipe for eventual success. Michelle: Right, makes sense. And let me guess, another rule says something like, "Never stop learning"? Alex: Exactly. Entrepreneurs, and really anyone, thrive when they stay curious and continuously seek improvement. The story of Soichiro Honda comes to mind. When Toyota rejected his early designs for piston rings, he didn’t give up. Instead, he spent years perfecting his skills, until he made some breakthroughs that completely changed his industry. Michelle: So, whether it’s chefs or startups or someone on a spiritual quest, “ganbatte” isn’t just about pushing through the pain. It’s about channeling resilience into real progress. Alex: I couldn't have said it better myself! Across every facet—mastery, spiritual growth, or entrepreneurial success—"ganbatte" shows us that persistence isn’t just about surviving the struggle; it’s about truly growing because of it.

Alex: So, shifting gears from those practical applications, we start seeing “ganbatte” as a broader way to find meaning in the journey itself. It's not just about pushing through, but about finding a deeper purpose in being resilient. It takes us from personal struggles to how those struggles contribute to bigger things, like cultural identity and growth. Michelle: Okay, so not just "get through it," but finding why getting through it matters. Interesting. I’m guessing this involves some elegantly metaphorical Japanese concept? Alex: Absolutely. Let's talk about kintsugi. It's this amazing art of fixing broken pottery with gold, but instead of hiding the cracks, it highlights them. For me, it's one of the most beautiful ways to think about resilience. Michelle: Let me guess, this isn’t just fancy pottery repair. There's a life lesson buried under all that golden glue? Alex: Precisely! The core idea is that an object’s cracks aren’t flaws to be ashamed of. They're actually part of its story. By using gold or silver to highlight those cracks, you're turning imperfection into something beautiful. Michelle: So it's like, "Wear your scars with pride," but with an artistic, thoughtful twist? Alex: Exactly! The story goes that back in the 15th century, a shogun named Ashikaga Yoshimasa broke his favorite tea bowl. He sent it to China for repairs. But it came back all crudely stapled together. He wasn't happy, so he asked Japanese artisans to find a better way, and they came up with kintsugi. It wasn't just fixed, it was art! Michelle: Alright, I'll admit, turning a broken bowl into a historical metaphor for resilience is pretty impressive. But how do we apply this to ourselves? How does someone "repair" themselves with gold? Alex: That's a great question, Michelle. It's less about physical repair and more about dealing with life's setbacks. Imagine you've gone through something tough – a breakup, losing someone, career setbacks. Instead of seeing these as permanent damage, kintsugi suggests weaving them into your story in a way that adds value, wisdom, even beauty. Michelle: So it’s like saying, "This broke me, but I’m stronger because of it"? Alex: Exactly! You fill those "cracks" with resilience, a new perspective, deeper connections. It's really close to the Japanese idea of wabi-sabi, which is all about finding beauty in imperfection. Together, they tell you to not just accept life's flaws, but to embrace them! Michelle: It’s all very poetic, Alex, but besides broken bowls and personal crises, does ganbatte see resilience as something bigger, something more… communal? Alex: Definitely. Liebermann mentions Japan's recovery after World War II as one of the best examples. The whole country was devastated – Hiroshima, Nagasaki, gone. The economy was in shambles, people were demoralized. But instead of giving in, the Japanese embraced ganbatte to rebuild. Michelle: You're talking about the economic miracle, right? Japan becoming a global powerhouse after the war? Alex: That's right. Ganbatte was everywhere. People worked hard for the sake of their country, not just for themselves. The rebuilding wasn’t just physical, like restoring cities. It was about rebuilding their national identity, a sense of purpose. That spirit fueled innovation in tech and manufacturing, leading to companies like Sony and Toyota becoming global leaders. Michelle: Got it. So, resilience here isn’t just about surviving; it’s about completely changing course on a grand scale. What motivated that collective drive? Fear of failure, or faith in their vision? Alex: It’s more about shared purpose. Think about Mt. Fuji. It symbolizes endurance and spiritual growth. Climbing it is tough – steep, unpredictable, you name it. But thousands do it every year. And who makes it to the top? Not always the fastest or strongest, but those who take it one step at a time, helping each other. Michelle: So, it’s less about getting to the top and more about the shared experience of climbing it. But what about the people who don’t reach the summit? Alex: Even that’s meaningful. The climb teaches you resilience and humility. It’s not about conquering Fuji. It’s about what the climb teaches you about yourself and your limits. And this leads to another idea that's linked to ganbatte: Ithaca. Michelle: Wait, like, the Homeric Ithaca? Odysseus’s long, difficult journey home? Alex: Yes, but I mean C.P. Cavafy’s poem Ithaca. It uses Odysseus’s journey to say that life is about valuing the experience, not just the destination. The speaker hopes for a long journey toward Ithaca, full of discoveries, challenges, and growth. Michelle: So, don’t rush to the finish line because you’ll miss all the good stuff along the way? Alex: Exactly! Ganbatte is similar. Whether you’re rebuilding a country or working on yourself, the process – the effort, the resilience, the lessons – is what makes you who you are. That’s why Liebermann talks about entrepreneurs who fail a bunch before succeeding, or artists who spend years perfecting their craft. Michelle: Embracing the idea that scars, setbacks, and detours actually make the journey worthwhile. That’s actually… surprisingly comforting. Alex: It is, because ganbatte changes resilience from a way to just survive into a way to find – and create – meaning in life.

Alex: So, to wrap things up, we’ve seen that “ganbatte” is more than just simple persistence, right? It's really a whole philosophy that’s baked right into Japanese culture. It's about bouncing back, not just blindly pushing forward, but really thoughtfully taking on challenges, whether it's in your art, your business, or just in your own personal life. Michelle: Exactly. And I really appreciated the balance we struck—that persistence isn’t just about toughing things out, but also about knowing when to pivot and, hey, even embracing imperfections. It's like that idea of turning your flaws or cracks into golden seams, right? Alex: Yes! Through stories like Jiro Ono’s relentless pursuit of sushi perfection, the Kumano Kodō pilgrimage, and yeah, even Japan’s incredible post-war recovery, “ganbatte” shows us that struggling isn’t the thing to avoid. It’s actually the thing that teaches you. Michelle: Right, and the teacher apparently is saying things like, “Fall seven times, get up eight,” but then also, “Losing can actually be winning.” Which is... whoa, that's a lot to unpack. Alex: Totally. And what “really” sticks with me is how “ganbatte” can transform the tough stuff in life into chances to grow and connect with others. It reminds us that growth doesn’t happen despite the challenges, but actually because of them. Michelle: So, whether you're trying to put together the perfect sushi roll, or just trying to figure out your next career move, the takeaway seems pretty clear: ride the wave, enjoy the trip, and maybe even give a nod to a crack or two along the way. Alex: Precisely, Michelle. For our listeners, maybe today just take a moment to think differently about something you're struggling with. Ask yourself – how is this shaping me, and how can I bring a little bit of kintsugi into my own life? Michelle: That’s a great prompt. Until next time, Alex—ganbatte kudasai. Alex: Ganbatte! Talk to you all next time!