Alex: Hey everyone, welcome! Today we're talking about something super relatable – how often do we kind of, you know, squeeze ourselves into these tiny boxes? We hide who we really are just to fit in and meet everyone else's expectations. Michelle: Yeah, it's like, you look around and think, “Wait, how did I even get in this box in the first place?” And more importantly, once you realize you're in it, what does it actually take to break free? Are we talking a little tap, tap, tap, or full-on “tear down the walls?" Alex: That's exactly what we're diving into today, inspired by Jen Hatmaker’s book, Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire. This isn’t just your average self-help book; it's more like a self-revolution manual. Hatmaker shares her own stories to tackle big life stuff. Think identity, community, vulnerability, and even spirituality. She really pushes us to live as our true selves, without apologizing for it. Michelle: Okay, so it’s not just another "love yourself" pep talk. It sounds like she's taking on the whole system. Is she encouraging us to challenge how society tells us we should behave? Alex: Exactly! For this discussion, we’re breaking it down into three main ideas. First, we'll get real about authenticity – untangling ourselves from all those masks we wear to fit in. Then, we’re talking community and how meaningful relationships help us thrive. And finally, we’ll dig into change – how your personal growth can actually create a bigger impact on the world around you. Michelle: So, basically, it's like shaking up your inner world, finding your tribe, and then going out there and making some real waves. Sounds easy enough, right? Alex: <Laughs> It’s ambitious, for sure, but Hatmaker makes it feel achievable. She ties everything back to making genuine connections – with ourselves, with others, and with our beliefs. It's like a roadmap we can all use. So, let's get started!

Alex: Okay, so picking up where we left off, let's really dive into authenticity. One thing I think “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” does so well is show the struggle that many of us face when we're trying to embrace our real selves. Jen Hatmaker really takes us along on her personal journey, beginning with the very rigid expectations of femininity that she grew up with. Michelle: Right, and you can almost feel the weight of it, can’t you? This suburban church, women dressed in their Sunday best, all following these perfect scripts for who they're "supposed" to be. It sounds way less like a community and more like a stage play where everyone has assigned roles. Do you think she consciously recognized the weight back then, or was it more of a gradual realization as she got older? Alex: That's a great question. I think, in the moment, it's just sort of the air you breathe, right? You don't question it because it feels normal. But then, someone like Mrs. Prissy comes along and just completely shakes things up. That character she describes, that bold, unapologetic woman who refuses to conform—she was such a catalyst for Hatmaker. She wasn't just "different," she was free. Michelle: Okay, but let’s pause here. I'm curious about how someone like Mrs. Prissy fits into a bigger picture, you know? Was she just quirky and an outlier, or did Hatmaker see her as, like, a symbol of what was possible? A living, breathing example of what stepping outside of the box could actually look like. Alex: Oh, definitely the latter. I think Mrs. Prissy represented possibility. She showed Hatmaker that being true to yourself doesn't make you an outsider or a troublemaker. It could actually make you a trailblazer. And then later there were the Lady Deacons, who added even more depth and diversity to this idea of womanhood. These weren't just one-offs but really part of a bigger pattern in Hatmaker's life where she kept encountering authenticity in others. Michelle: I like that – encountering authenticity as a pattern. It’s almost like a breadcrumb trail that she followed to find her own way. So, with my skeptic hat on, how do you translate all that inspiration into action for yourself, you know? It's one thing to admire someone like Mrs. Prissy, but another to actually be that brave. Alex: Right. And that's where tools like the Enneagram come in, right? Hatmaker uses it as a mirror to explore her own wiring, her motivations, her fears, and her reactions, to figure out why she behaves the way that she does. It's less about trying to replicate what works for someone else and more about digging into what makes you tick. Michelle: Okay, but does the Enneagram really hold up as a real self-discovery tool? I mean, isn't it just another way of putting people in boxes, telling us, "Oh, you're a Type 3 so you must be ambitious," or, "You're a Type 9, so you avoid conflict"? Alex: I think that's the beauty of the way that Hatmaker approaches it though. She isn't using it to label herself, she's using it to understand her patterns, and then break free from what doesn't serve her. So it's really about clarity, not confinement. She even talks about how seeing her own tendencies in black and white helped her figure out why she kept chasing external approval, instead of trusting her inner voice. Michelle: Alright, that makes so much sense. It's more of a lens than a cage, then—kind of like holding up a mirror and saying, "Okay, these are your habits. Now, what are you going to do about them?" Alex: Exactly. And I think that's really where self-discovery meets self-compassion, right? Hatmaker's not just saying, "Figure out who you are," she's saying, "Figure it out, love that person, and then live as her unapologetically." Michelle: Gotcha. So, switching gears slightly, let’s talk about reclaiming identity in the face of judgment. That story about Hatmaker being introduced as a "storyteller" when her male peers were called "speakers"... that hit hard. Alex: Me too. It's such a subtle, but pointed, way of undermining someone's authority, right? And it wasn't just about that one moment, it was really a symptom of a wider issue. Hatmaker realized how often women are minimized, dismissed, or made to feel like they're just, you know, “not enough.” Michelle: Right, and instead of shrinking from that experience, she flipped the whole script. And I like how she reframed "not enough" into "already enough." But let's be real, you know—how do you actually internalize something like that when society keeps throwing the opposite message at you? Alex: And that's where authenticity becomes not just a personal act, but a rebellion, right? Like she says in the book. It's about reclaiming your worth despite what the world says. She stopped waiting for external permission to use her voice and started trusting that her voice deserved to be heard, period. Michelle: So, it's an inside job first, but it takes guts to back that up with action, you know? And honestly, I think that that's what makes this part of the book so compelling, She's owning her flaws, not pretending that she's invincible, and yet she's also demanding respect. Alex: Right, and speaking of owning things, let's talk about how she brings the body into the authenticity conversation because her idea of seeing the body as a storyteller is really such a powerful shift from the usual, "fix this," "improve that" messaging we always hear. Michelle: I loved that imagery, you know. Instead of your body being something that you're constantly tweaking or apologizing for, it's more like a scrapbook of your life. Every scar, stretch mark, or wrinkle tells a story about, you know, where you've been and what you've overcome. Alex: Exactly. And she's really calling out this unhealthy obsession with perfection that keeps us at war with ourselves. Instead of battling her body, she learned to celebrate it just as it is, with all of its imperfections, and that's really the ultimate act of self-compassion and acceptance. Michelle: So essentially, embracing authenticity isn't just wearing your heart on your sleeve, but it's living fully in every part of yourself: in your mind, in your voice, and in your body. A total package, right? Alex: It really is. And I think Hatmaker's whole point is that this kind of authenticity doesn't just liberate you, but it creates a ripple effect. Because when you live authentically, you inspire others to do the same. It's a collective act of liberation. Michelle: Yeah, I can see that. It’s like the opposite of the conformity loops that we started with, you know? Breaking out of your box actually helps others see the cracks in theirs. Alex: Precisely. And actually, that's probably the best place to leave this section today, because authenticity isn't just about you, but it always starts with you. And when you live truthfully, it creates space for others to do the same.

Alex: So, this really gets to the core of why self-worth and empowerment are vital and Hatmaker doesn't stop there; she takes it from personal authenticity and applies it to our relationships and how we build communities . Honestly, Michelle, I think this whole section on “building supportive communities” might be the most impactful part of the entire book . Michelle: Building communities, huh? So, we've gone from fixing ourselves to, like, actually connecting with other humans . Okay . Are we talking “host a potluck and save the world” kind of stuff, or is there something more to it? Alex: Oh, much more . Hatmaker’s talking about completely changing how we interact with each other . It's about choosing to be vulnerable, creating these spaces intentionally, and then using that collective strength to face whatever challenges come our way . And she really believes it starts with vulnerability . Michelle: Vulnerability… Just the word makes me want to build a fortress around my emotions! What does she say about actually opening up without, you know, totally regretting it later? Alex: Well, she doesn't hold back . She says vulnerability isn’t just about oversharing your problems; it’s about opening the door to collaboration and growth . She shares this powerful story from when her kids were young . She was on the phone with her mom, just completely overwhelmed—trying to do everything herself, and she just broke down . That moment of honesty changed everything . Her husband, Brandon, stepped up and changed his schedule so she could have some time to herself . Those five hours a week made a huge difference in her well-being . Michelle: Wow, so no one even knew she was struggling until she actually said something . That says a lot . Isn’t there a bit of a paradox here, though? We’re told to be independent, right? "Don't ask for help, it'll make you look weak." And now we're supposed to completely reverse that? Alex: Exactly! And that’s the trap she wants to dismantle . Asking for help doesn’t make you weak . It allows others to support you . She’s challenging this idea that self-reliance is the ultimate virtue . Instead, she proposes this idea of collaborative resilience . So, by asking for help, you’re not just helping yourself – you’re enabling people around you to be there for you in a meaningful way . Michelle: Okay, fair enough . So, vulnerability isn’t just about unloading your baggage; it’s about letting people share your journey . That flips the script . What happens when people don’t react like Brandon did? What if you open up and you’re met with, indifference, or even judgement? Alex: That’s a very real concern, and she’s aware of that . Hatmaker's not making vulnerability sound like a fairytale . She knows it takes courage . But she also believes the reward outweighs the risk . When you drop your guard, you open yourself up to deeper, more authentic relationships . And if people can't handle that? Then you know where not to invest your energy . Michelle: Got it . Vulnerability as a filter . If someone steps up, they’re with you; if not, you reassess . I can work with that . What about actual strategies for creating this supportive community? Does she give any practical advice, or does she just say, "Go be vulnerable and good luck"? Alex: Oh, she’s all about being practical . Hatmaker stresses intentionality – actively creating spaces where connection can thrive . One of her ideas is so simple, it’s kind of radical: open up your home and let go of perfectionism . She describes these real connection moments: kids everywhere, people laughing over meals, a little messy, but who cares? The goal is to “be together”, not to put on some kind of show . Michelle: I can almost hear the chaos, kids screaming, dishes clattering! Sounds a little overwhelming, but I can see the appeal . What about the introverts? Do we all have to throw big parties to connect, or is there a quieter path? Alex: That's a great question . Hatmaker is clear that connection comes in many forms . For some, it's a block party . For others, it could just be a coffee date with one person . The form doesn't matter; it's the intent behind it . She’s particularly passionate about reaching out to people who might feel isolated—new neighbors, single parents, people who just moved to town . It’s about focusing on who needs a community and offering a hand in a way that feels authentic to you . Michelle: Okay, I get that . So, it’s not about trying to be Martha Stewart; it’s about noticing lonely people and saying, “Hey, you belong here.” But how does this translate to bigger issues, like tackling global problems? Does she go beyond neighborhood potlucks? Alex: Absolutely . Hatmaker makes a strong case for the power of collective strength . She points to places like IDEO, the design firm, where teamwork is key to solving complicated problems . The whole idea is that when people share their ideas and skills, they can achieve way more than one person ever could alone . Michelle: So, she’s saying community is more than just a nice feeling – it’s a tool against big challenges, from global crises to workplace issues, anything really? Alex: Exactly . And she's seen this firsthand, especially with her strong female friendships, her personal "tribe." They meet not just to catch up, but to celebrate each other’s victories, support each other during struggles, and really invest in each other's growth . It’s a reminder that growth doesn't happen alone; it's fueled by the people around you . Michelle: Community as rocket fuel – I like that . But – and I know I’m pushing – isn’t there a risk of communities becoming too exclusive, even cliquey? How do you make sure it's not just an echo chamber? Alex: That’s a great point . That’s where Hatmaker’s call for inclusion is important . She challenges us to step outside our comfort zone, and to amplify– to listen to and uplift, voices that are often marginalized . It’s not just about connection; it’s about equity – making sure there’s room for everyone at the table . Michelle: That’s a really solid framework . Vulnerability, intentionality, inclusion . If community is all those things, it's more than just a comfortable personal safety net – it’s a way to actually restructure relationships, maybe even society itself . This just might be the most revolutionary chapter of all .

Alex: So, moving on from personal growth, Hatmaker really steers us towards collective action in this section of Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire. It's all about taking what we've learned about ourselves and using it to advocate for justice and change systems. It's not just about figuring out who we are, but how we can use that to empower others, especially those in marginalized communities. Michelle: Yeah, she's basically saying, "Okay, you've started figuring out your own stuff, now what are you going to “do” about the world around you?" No small task, right? What I found interesting is how she frames advocacy as a responsibility, not just a hobby you pick up if you're bored. It's like, "You're already involved; you just might not realize it." Alex: Exactly! And she's not glossing over the hard parts. It's not just about showing up; it's about being active. She talks about her own experiences, you know, like marching with Martin Luther King Jr. It wasn't just a symbolic gesture for her; it was a turning point. It wasn't enough to just stand next to someone, she realized she had to march for their rights, too. Michelle: That's a pretty powerful distinction, "standing beside" versus "marching for." It's easy to pat yourself on the back for showing up without really thinking about what's at stake for those who live it every day. So, Alex, how do we actually move from just being aware to actually doing something, without getting completely overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the problems? Alex: Well, Hatmaker emphasizes that advocacy doesn't have to be some grand gesture to start. Showing up is resistance, sometimes. But she stresses being humble and listening. Good intentions aren't enough if you're not informed or if you're doing more harm than good. She learned that firsthand when she realized her early efforts were kind of leaning into the whole "White Savior" thing. Michelle: Ugh, the "I'm here to fix everything" trope. I can see how easy it is to fall into that, even when you mean well. Did she talk about how she realized she was doing that? Alex: She did. She realized she was centering her own perspective instead of actually listening to the people who were already doing the work. Instead of amplifying marginalized voices, she was accidentally overshadowing them. That's where Latasha Morrison's Be the Bridge organization came in; it gave her a framework for having meaningful conversations about race in a way that was both productive and respectful. Michelle: So, it was like shifting from "let me help" to "let me learn." That's a big shift! I bet it took some serious self-reflection to admit those early missteps. Owning up to mistakes, especially when they're public, is never easy. Alex: No, it's not. And she's really honest about how uncomfortable it was. But she frames those moments of discomfort as necessary for growth. For her, humility is essential in advocacy. It's admitting what you don't know and being willing to learn, even when it's messy and humbling. Michelle: Okay, let's switch gears a bit. Advocacy can feel kind of abstract until it hits you personally. What really struck me was how it became brutally personal for her when her daughter faced racism at school. That's a punch in the gut no parent wants, and suddenly, she had no choice but to act. Alex: Exactly, that story adds such a visceral layer. Watching her daughter deal with bullying that was rooted in racism wasn't just painful; it stripped away any passivity she might have had. She describes how she just transformed into this mama bear, advocating fiercely within institutional spaces, like schools, even though the deck seemed stacked against her. Michelle: It's interesting how a parent advocating for their child can be a microcosm of bigger systemic change, you know? She wasn't just speaking up for her daughter; she was challenging a school system that wasn't doing enough to address racism, period. It's universal, right? You start at home, but the ripples go way beyond. Alex: Exactly. Advocacy starts close to home, but it doesn't stay there. Speaking up isn't just about protecting our loved ones, but about, reshaping the systems that perpetuate harm. That's why her call to action is so urgent. When we ignore these systems, we're essentially complicit in maintaining them. Michelle: Alright, that's a solid point. But what about the emotional toll? She talks about facing criticism. How does she suggest people handle the inevitable backlash that comes with speaking out? Alex: That's super important. Hatmaker is upfront about the sacrifices involved, the exhaustion, and the opposition, especially from people who are resistant to change. Her strategy is to focus on the work and the people it serves. She uses this phrase, "bless and release," to describe how she deals with critics. The idea is to let go of the negativity and stay focused on your purpose. Michelle: "Bless and release"... I kind of love that! But let's be real, it's easier said than done. That kind of resilience takes practice, especially when the pushback feels personal. Alex: True, but Hatmaker's point is that dwelling on that criticism just drains energy that's better spent on the work itself. Advocacy is about keeping that forward momentum. Societal change has always been met with resistance. Her message? Don't let that resistance derail you. Michelle: Okay, I can definitely respect that. But what really sticks with me is that whole idea that, advocacy isn't this grand, unattainable thing – it's rooted in shared humanity. She mentions that helping others actually activates the same part of our brains that lights up when we feel joy. Like, we're kind of wired to care for each other, which makes all this sound… not just doable, but almost natural. Alex: That's the beautiful part, right? It's not about being a savior or a hero. It's about tapping into compassion and connection. Understanding that when you lift others up, you're lifting yourself up, too. And the way she ties this back to personal fulfillment, it’s so compelling. Participating in marches, having those tough conversations about justice, amplifying someone else's voice, it's not just an obligation; it's transformative on a personal level. Michelle: So, advocating for justice, it actually energizes you, rather than draining you, if it's rooted in genuine connection and shared purpose. I think that's a message people really need to hear.

Alex: So, to bring it all home, Jen Hatmaker’s “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire”... it's not just about being yourself, right? It’s a call to arms, almost, for living a life that’s both brave and real, while building connections that actually “mean” something, and, you know, standing up for what you believe in. We talked about shedding all those expectations society piles on us, how showing your true self can change everything, and how feeling strong inside empowers you to push for bigger changes. Michelle: Yeah, and what really resonated with me is that Hatmaker doesn’t sugarcoat anything. Breaking those old habits, letting people see the real you, flaws and all, or even just standing up against injustice… these are hard things! But the payoff, according to her, is huge. It's not just about, you know, finding your little spot in the universe, she's talking about trying to make the whole world a better place for everyone. Alex: Precisely! And if you only remember one thing from this book, let it be this: Living authentically starts with “you”, but it doesn't stop there. It's like a pebble in a pond; every time you're honest, every time you connect with someone, every time you fight for something, you make it easier for others to do the same. Michelle: So, with that, here’s a question for everyone listening: Where can “you” be more real? For yourself, for your friends, for something you care about? It doesn’t have to be huge, just start somewhere. Because like Hatmaker says, real change starts when we decide to live life to the fullest, with everything we've got. Alex: Absolutely. And on that note, thanks so much for tuning in today. Keep being brave, keep being bold, and we'll catch you next time!