Mark: Most of us were taught that 'well-behaved women' are the ideal. But what if being 'well-behaved' is the very thing holding you back? What if the key to a glorious life is actually found in being a little unruly, a little loud, and unapologetically yourself? Michelle: I love that framing. It flips the script on a lifetime of social conditioning. We’re told to be agreeable, to be polite, to not make waves. The idea that our power lies in breaking those rules is both thrilling and, honestly, a little terrifying. Mark: It’s the provocative question at the heart of Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire by Jen Hatmaker. And she argues that this isn't just about rebellion for its own sake; it's about alignment with your truest self. Michelle: And Hatmaker is a fascinating figure to be asking it. She started as a darling of the conservative evangelical world, a bestselling Christian author and speaker. But her own journey of 'unruly' spiritual questioning, particularly her affirmation of LGBTQ relationships, led to her being publicly ostracized by that same community. This book feels, in many ways, like her manifesto born from that fire. Mark: Exactly. It’s a guide to living authentically, written by someone who paid a very public price for doing just that. She starts by examining the models of womanhood she grew up with, these paragons of being 'well-behaved,' and realizes they were living in cages, however gilded.

Michelle: Right, and she contrasts those 'well-behaved' women with the ones who left a mark on her—women who were a bit too much, a bit unconventional. Like the family friend she calls Mrs. Prissy, who wore leopard print and giant jewelry in a sea of sensible suburban moms. Mark: Those women were the cracks in the facade for her. They showed her other ways of being were possible. But the real struggle, as she describes it, wasn't just external. It was the internal battle with her own wiring. She tells this gut-wrenching story from sixth grade that I think perfectly captures this. Michelle: Oh, I think I know the one you mean. The teacher story? Mark: That’s the one. She had just come out of a shy phase and was starting to embrace her personality—she was funny, a bit of a leader, outspoken. But her teacher, a Mrs. Anderson, clearly did not like it. She favored the quiet girls and the boys. Michelle: That sounds like a nightmare scenario for a middle schooler. You’re already so insecure. Mark: It gets worse. Mrs. Anderson’s disapproval wasn't subtle. It was in her tone, her expressions. At one point, she pulled Hatmaker’s friends aside and asked them why they were friends with her, calling her 'domineering.' Michelle: Oh, that’s brutal. To use your own friends against you like that. Mark: Hatmaker was crushed. She tried everything to win her over—perfect grades, perfect behavior—but nothing worked. The disapproval was baked in. The experience left this deep scar, a core belief that something was fundamentally wrong with her personality. That to be loved, she had to be someone else. Michelle: Wow, and that’s a message so many women internalize. That your natural personality—if it’s assertive or ambitious or just plain loud—is a flaw to be managed. But here’s my question, Mark. How do you distinguish between your authentic 'wiring' and just… bad behavior? Where's the line between being 'fierce' and just being a jerk? Mark: That is the million-dollar question, and Hatmaker has a really useful framework for it. She argues it’s not about a specific personality type being superior. She categorizes women into what she calls Mega, Mezzo, and Modest types. Michelle: Okay, break that down for me. Mega, Mezzo, Modest. Mark: A Mega Woman thrives in a big space. She's a natural leader, comfortable on a stage, energized by a crowd. Think CEO, lead pastor, performer. A Mezzo Woman is more of a connector, thriving in medium-sized groups. She’s the one who organizes the committee, leads the small group, builds the team. And a Modest Woman finds her energy and purpose in smaller, more intimate settings—one-on-one connections, deep research, quiet acts of service. Michelle: I see. So it’s not that one is better than the other. Mark: Precisely. The problem isn't the volume of your personality; it's trying to force yourself into the wrong size container. A Mega Woman trying to be Modest will feel stifled and resentful. A Modest Woman forced into a Mega role will be exhausted and overwhelmed. She tells this story about being invited to preach at a large, traditional church early in her career. Michelle: I can already sense where this is going. Mark: She was thrilled, prepared for weeks. She saw it as a huge opportunity. She gets there, and the lead pastor introduces her by saying, "Jen is here to share some stories for the women. The men can just peek over their shoulders until we get back to our regular sermon series." Michelle: Ugh. That is so condescending. He literally put her in a smaller box, right there in front of everyone. Mark: And then she found out she was paid significantly less than a male colleague for the exact same job. The message was clear: you deserve less space, less respect, less compensation. Her point is that the world will constantly try to shove you into a container that suits its own agenda. The fierce act is to know your own size and to demand the space that you were designed to fill.

Michelle: Okay, so once you accept who you are and what size container you need, the next step is actually building a life that fits. And that sounds like it involves saying 'no' a lot, which is terrifying for most people, especially women. Mark: It is. We’re socialized to be helpers, to be accommodating. But Hatmaker argues that a sloppy 'yes' is one of the most damaging things you can do, both to yourself and to others. She shares this painfully relatable story about a project she was launching. Michelle: The book club! Yes, this one made me cringe in recognition. Mark: Her team had been working for three months to launch this new online book club. It was a huge undertaking. But Hatmaker had said 'yes' to it without realistically looking at her calendar, which was already packed with writing deadlines and speaking events. Michelle: She was running on fumes and wishful thinking. I’ve been there. Mark: Exactly. The day before the launch, she has a complete meltdown and realizes there is absolutely no way she can pull it off. She has to text her assistant and bail on the entire thing. The launch is delayed, the first author they’d partnered with has to be rescheduled, and her team’s three months of work are thrown into chaos. Michelle: It’s such a perfect example. Her desire to be agreeable and say 'yes' ended up creating a massive mess for everyone. It wasn't generous at all; it was irresponsible. Mark: That’s her core point. A clear, honest 'no' upfront is far more generous than a reluctant, resentful, or unrealistic 'yes.' It protects your energy and respects other people's time. This is where she introduces principles like the '90 percent rule' or what others call the 'hell yes or no' principle. If an opportunity isn't a 90% or a 'hell yes,' it should be a firm 'no.' Michelle: That requires a lot of self-discipline. But it also requires trusting that it's okay to ask for help when you need it, which is another thing we're bad at. Mark: We are terrible at it! We see it as a sign of weakness or incompetence. She tells this hilarious and heartbreaking story about a trip to Naples, Italy, with her husband and friends. They were trying to get to Pompeii and were completely lost at the trolley station. Michelle: I remember this. They were warned about pickpockets, so their guard was way up. Mark: Way up. So this elderly Italian man, a total stranger, sees their confusion and kindly offers to help. He guides them onto a trolley and starts explaining the route. But other passengers start giving them these subtle, warning looks. Michelle: And their tourist brains go into overdrive. They think, "This is it. This is the scam. He's leading us into a trap." Mark: Total panic. So they abruptly jump off the trolley at the next stop, leaving this kind old man standing there, utterly bewildered. As the trolley pulls away, he just looks at them with this wounded expression and mouths, "Why you no trust me??" Michelle: Oh, it’s so sad! And of course, they later realize he was being completely genuine and would have gotten them there much faster. Mark: Their fear and inability to accept help not only made their own journey harder but also broke this kind man's heart. Hatmaker uses this to show how our refusal to be vulnerable and accept help can wound others and cut us off from the very support we need. Building a fierce life requires both the strength to say 'no' and the humility to ask for help.

Mark: And this all comes together in how we connect with others. If you're living authentically and you have firm boundaries, your relationships have to change. You can't perform anymore. You have to show up as your real self. Michelle: Which means some relationships might fall away, the ones that were based on that performance. The ones that thrive on drama. Mark: Exactly. She advocates for actively purging drama from your life. But she also shows what can be built in its place. This leads to one of the most powerful stories in the book, about her church's involvement in the Austin Pride Parade. Michelle: The 'Free Mom Hugs' story. This one is just beautiful. Mark: It is. After her own theological shift, her church community wanted to show up for the LGBTQ+ community in a tangible way. So, inspired by the 'Free Mom Hugs' movement, dozens of them made signs—'Free Dad Hugs,' 'Free Pastor Hugs,' 'Free Grandma Hugs'—and they just stood on the parade route with their arms open. Michelle: And what was the reaction? Mark: It was overwhelming. People were literally running out of the parade, weeping, to fall into their arms. A young man sobbed into a 'Dad's' shoulder, saying, "My own dad won't even speak to me." A young woman told a 'Mom' that her parents had kicked her out. For hours, they just stood there and offered the unconditional love and acceptance that so many had been denied. Michelle: That gives me chills. It's such a perfect example of what she means by 'believing in a cause.' It’s not about winning an argument online; it’s about showing up with plain, old-fashioned love. It's advocacy in its purest form. Mark: It is. And it’s the kind of connection that becomes possible when you stop contorting yourself to fit other people's expectations. You become free to connect with honesty and love. This is what she means by finding 'safe people.' These are relationships built on trust and mutual respect, where, as she quotes, "You are responsible to others, not for others." Michelle: That’s such a crucial distinction. It’s about support, not codependency. It’s about creating a life where your connections energize you instead of draining you with drama.

Mark: It really is a complete blueprint. It starts with that deep, internal work of self-acceptance, moves to the external work of building a life with boundaries and intention, and culminates in a new way of relating to the world with honesty and love. Michelle: So when you boil it all down, what's the one big takeaway from Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire? What's the central truth? Mark: I think it’s that authenticity isn't just a self-help buzzword; it's a structural principle for your life. Hatmaker's own journey, especially her very public and painful break with mainstream evangelicalism, proves this is not an easy path. It has real costs. But she argues that the alternative—a life of pretending, of shrinking, of being 'well-behaved'—is a kind of slow, spiritual death. The book is, ultimately, a permission slip. Michelle: A permission slip to stop performing. Mark: Yes. To stop apologizing for your personality, to stop ignoring your dreams, and to stop tolerating relationships that diminish you. It’s a call to integrate your inner self with your outer life, so there’s no gap between who you are and how you live. Michelle: It really makes you ask yourself: where in my life am I still 'behaving' when I should be living? Where am I choosing politeness over my own truth? We'd love to hear what our listeners think. Drop us a comment on our socials and share one small, unruly step you're inspired to take after hearing this. Mark: This is Aibrary, signing off.