Autumn: Ever notice how certain problems just keep popping up, no matter how much you hate them? What if, on some weird, subconscious level, you actually kind of... enjoy them? Rachel: “Enjoy” them? Autumn, that sounds a bit twisted, doesn't it? Are we suggesting people are secretly masochistic about their own misery? Autumn: Well, that's the core idea behind Carolyn Elliott's book, “Existential Kink”. She argues that we might be unconsciously drawn to the very things we claim to despise. And that by acknowledging, even embracing, that hidden attraction, we can totally transform our lives. Rachel: Okay, that's... fascinatingly disturbing. So, we're talking about shadow work

Autumn: Okay, so let’s dive into the foundation here: the shadow self. It’s really critical for understanding “Existential Kink”. As Jung described it, the shadow self is where we stash all the parts of ourselves that we just reject – anything we think is shameful, inappropriate, or doesn't fit with the person we think we should be. Rachel: Right, the "unconscious junk drawer," as some might say. But here’s where I always get hung up: How does this shadow end up calling the shots? I mean, if these are aspects we're actively trying to ignore, how do they get so much power over us? Autumn: That's a great question. The idea, according to Jung and as Elliott echoes, is that the more we try to bury these parts of ourselves, the more they act out behind the scenes. Think of it like a pressure cooker. Say someone grows up thinking anger is a big no-no, they’re going to repress it. But that anger doesn't just disappear. It simmers, and then it pops up in unexpected ways – maybe through passive-aggression, self-sabotage, or even physical symptoms. Rachel: So, by repressing these aspects, we inadvertently give them power, and they find sneaky ways to manifest in our lives. And we end up stuck in patterns that feel random, but are actually driven by this hidden force. Autumn: Exactly! And that’s what makes shadow integration so important. As long as these impulses stay unconscious, we’re just going to keep bumping into the same problems and just chalking it up to “bad luck” or “fate”. Jung even famously said, “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it Fate”. Rachel: Right—because what feels like chaos isn’t chaos after all. It’s your own internal unresolved business dragging you back into the same traps. Now, this is where Elliott takes it a step further. She basically says that these patterns aren't just random, there's a part of us that secretly enjoys them. Autumn: Yes, and this is where it can get a little uncomfortable for people. Elliott's theory is that there's this kind of kinky, almost taboo pleasure that’s hidden within these painful patterns – a subconscious part of us that's actually drawn to the drama or the tension they create. Rachel: Ooof. Okay, let’s unpack that, because it's easy to hear that and think, “Oh great, so now I’m being blamed for my own suffering.” How do we explain this "hidden thrill" concept without sounding like we’re just victim-blaming? Autumn: That’s a fair point. She’s not saying you consciously choose to suffer, but that your shadow self – those disowned parts of you – finds certain experiences…stimulating. It’s not about placing blame. It’s about being radically honest about your emotional patterns. Let’s go back to Elsie’s case from the book as an example. Rachel: Yes, Elsie, who reframed her social anxiety as an adrenaline rush. Refresh our memory. Autumn: Sure. Elsie had really intense social anxiety, especially when she felt judged or criticized. She saw it as completely negative – heart racing, sweaty palms, feeling exposed. But, through the “Existential Kink” exercises, she started noticing something interesting: those same physical sensations, the racing heart and flushed cheeks, could also describe excitement or even arousal. It turns out, some part of her actually craved the intensity of these moments, even though she labeled them as "fear." Rachel: So, instead of thinking, “I’m afraid, and I need to fix this,” she started asking, “What’s this weird, spicy thrill that I’m tapping into without even realizing it?” Autumn: Exactly! And when she was able to identify that "spicy thrill," she started embracing the sensations of fear instead of fighting them. That doesn’t mean she suddenly loved being criticized – she wasn’t magically cured. But her relationship to the emotion changed, and that gave her a sense of control she didn’t have before. Rachel: And the amazing part is, once she stopped resisting that shadowy "enjoyment" of the thrill, she could consciously channel that energy in healthier ways – like being more selective about who she spent time with and building more supportive relationships. Autumn: Right. That’s the transformative power of shadow integration. Instead of letting unconscious patterns dictate your life, EK flips the script. By embracing these taboo parts of yourself – including the hidden pleasure in your pain – you release the shame and you reclaim your agency. Rachel: Okay, but, just to be clear, we’re not saying that every negative experience is secretly pleasurable, right? Like… if someone is experiencing systemic oppression or abuse, this concept doesn’t apply in the same way. Autumn: Correct. It’s crucial to use discernment here. Elliott is very clear that EK is about personal, recurring patterns – not external forces or systemic issues. It’s about the elements in your life that you can take responsibility for exploring, not situations where taking responsibility would be harmful or inappropriate. Shadow integration is about exploring your inner world, not excusing abusive systems or external injustices. Rachel: Got it. Let’s zoom out for a second, though. This whole idea, the shadow's hidden desires, the enjoyment of pain, it all reminds me of Freud's concept of “psychic masochism”. Isn’t that basically what he meant? That people unconsciously recreate their suffering because they get some kind of gratification from it? Autumn: Exactly! Freud’s work on psychic masochism really paved the way for “Existential Kink”. He noticed that people often cling to painful patterns because of some kind of unconscious gratification, even if they would never consciously admit it. Then Jung came along and expanded on that idea with the shadow, framing these unconscious drives as essential parts of ourselves that we need to work with, not against. Rachel: And let's not forget Lacan – his idea of jouissance is basically the same thing, right? The paradoxical enjoyment of discomfort. People are drawn to certain patterns, not because they’re good for them, but because they satisfy unconscious urges. Autumn: Yes, and Carolyn Elliott essentially weaves all these threads – Freud, Jung, Lacan – into a practical framework with EK. She doesn’t just stop at, "Well, your shadow has desires." She asks, how do we actually interact with those desires? How do we alchemize our discomfort into liberation? And her answer involves experiential practices, like the EK meditation. Rachel: Okay, let’s talk about that meditation. Because I’ve been following the philosophical idea up until now, but I want to know, like, how does someone actually do this work? Autumn: The process is surprisingly straightforward, but it can be emotionally intense. First, you identify a life situation that you “don’t like”. It could be recurring rejection, financial struggle, anything that’s causing you pain. Then, instead of resisting it, you sit with the emotions it brings up. Rachel: Sounds simple enough, but I'm guessing it's a lot harder in practice. Autumn: Definitely. You need to let those emotions surface fully – feel exactly how they sit in your body. Notice where the tension is, what the sensation is like. Does it burn, ache, vibrate? And here’s the transformative part: instead of rejecting the emotion, you actively savor it. You lean into the sensation, and you find its richness. Sometimes that means finding humor in it, or even imagining it as pleasurable. Rachel: I see where resistance melts away. If you’re savoring discomfort instead of dreading it, you’re breaking that cycle of avoidance. It’s like saying, “I see you, discomfort, and I’m not afraid.” Autumn: Precisely. And that’s really where the alchemical magic happens – by consciously engaging with these emotions, we integrate them. The pain doesn’t control us anymore because we’ve embraced its hidden energy.

Autumn: So, moving from understanding the shadow self, we get to the practical stuff, right? This is where Existential Kink shines – it doesn't just give us these big shadow integration theories. It actually gives us exercises so we can face these “don't like” situations, unpack them, and change how we deal with them emotionally and physically. Rachel: Yeah, practical steps are key. As interesting as this all sounds, listeners are probably wondering how to actually apply this, you know? Beyond just saying, "sit with your feelings," as you always hear. Autumn: Exactly! Elliott's approach is really structured. It starts with the Basic EK Meditation. The goal is simple but powerful: to drop our resistance to discomfort. It guides you to actually savor it – to really be with the physical sensations that go with those emotions, instead of pushing them away. Rachel: Savoring discomfort, huh? I need to hear how that works, because my first thought is that's totally backwards. Autumn: Okay, fair. Let's break it down. Think of it as going on a guided trip into something you've been avoiding. First, you find a quiet, comfy spot where you can focus – just you and your thoughts, no distractions. Relaxation is important here, so like Elliott says, use deep breathing or just be mindful to center yourself. Rachel: Alright, so we're setting the stage, getting ready to dive deep. What's next? I'm guessing it's not just sitting there quietly forever. Autumn: Nope. Next, you pick something that keeps bugging you – could be money problems, something in your relationship, or a fear you can't shake. Pick something emotionally charged, and bring it right to the front of your mind. Rachel: Okay, deliberately adding more discomfort. I can see why this might be hard. You're not just thinking about it; you're bringing up the actual feelings tied to it. Autumn: Exactly. That's where the shift can happen. When you start to notice the specifics, like a knot in your stomach, a weight in your chest, or tingling in your arms, you stop just calling it "bad." You start being curious about it. Rachel: So we're talking fear, shame, even anger, and the point is to explore it like a sensory experience. And at some point, you're supposed to reframe it? You said "savor," which is such an odd way to describe something awful. Autumn: It is odd, but that's the point. By staying with the feeling, you might find new things in it. Like, the heat of anger might feel almost energizing, or the tension of anxiety might remind you of excitement, like before something big. Think of a roller coaster – what feels like fear can also be oddly thrilling. Rachel: Hang on a second. Are there limits here? Because I can see someone thinking, "Isn't this glorifying pain? Aren't we just making it worse by paying attention to it?" Autumn: Good point, and Elliott does talk about that. The point isn't to just sit in the pain or make it seem great. It's to have a playful awareness around the feeling – to admit that part of you might find the intensity appealing or maybe even enjoyable. That way, you integrate it instead of pushing it away. It's about changing how you relate to it, so it's not controlling you from the shadows anymore. Rachel: Okay, let's use an example, like Elsie's social anxiety. She changed her physical reaction to criticism into adrenaline, right? Autumn: Exactly. Before EK, Elsie was crippled by her anxiety. Racing heart, flushed cheeks, shaky voice – it was all too much. But through meditation, she saw that those sensations weren't just fear; they were like the excitement you feel before going on stage or doing something thrilling. By savoring that overlap, she took away some of the fear's power. Instead of being trapped, it became something she could even appreciate because it was so intense. Rachel: And from there, it sounds like the shame around anxiety just went away. It wasn't this "problem to fix" anymore, but something she could look at with curiosity instead of dread. Autumn: Yes! That's why "savoring discomfort" is so perfect. It's not about liking the pain – let's be clear – but seeing the energy in it, some of which you can actually use or even enjoy. And that leads us nicely to another EK thing: journaling. Rachel: Ah yes, journaling. Is this the "write it out and hope for the best" part? Autumn: Not really. Journaling in EK is more than just venting. Elliott suggests using it to map out your emotional patterns and the physical responses tied to them. Like, if you keep having the same issues in a relationship, journaling can help you see if that's connected to something from your past or unconscious beliefs. Rachel: Okay, so it's like emotional archaeology – digging into the patterns you keep repeating. But does it also get into the sensory part, like the meditation? Autumn: Definitely. Elliott wants you to describe the sensations that go with your emotions. If you're writing about jealousy, instead of just asking "why," you'd also note how it feels in your body – does your throat tighten, do you get hot, does your posture change? Rachel: And, I guess, over time, that self-awareness helps you connect what triggers you emotionally and how you physically react to those triggers. Autumn: Exactly. And it helps you find those unspoken “kinks” in the patterns – those little ways your shadow is drawn to the energy of the situation. Journaling makes the unconscious conscious. It's like turning on a light in a dark room so you can see what's been tripping you up. Rachel: I like how hands-on this is. It's not just thinking about it; it's a way to actually explore your internal system. And then you move on to those sensory exercises, right? Autumn: Right! Sensory awareness is the third practice, and it brings the focus back to your body. We often get so caught up in thinking about emotions that we forget the body is where they live. The sensory exercises are simple but powerful – things like eating mindfully, touching objects carefully, just being in the present moment. Rachel: So, instead of overthinking something stressful, you're like, "What does this orange feel like? What's its texture?," focusing on the details. Autumn: Bingo. And that shift is surprisingly grounding. It doesn't make the big emotions disappear, but it stops you from spiraling out of control. By practicing sensory awareness regularly, you start to handle discomfort without getting overwhelmed. Rachel: Alright, I can see how that fits into the bigger picture of EK. Integration isn't just mental; it's physical too. These practices get you ready to deal with your shadow with kindness and confidence. Autumn: Exactly. Whether it's meditation, journaling, or sensory exercises, the goal is the same: to turn discomfort into awareness, resistance into acceptance, and repression into empowerment. Let's pause here. These exercises are a “really” solid base for that transformation.

Autumn: So, with these tools, we dive into how they apply to relationships. Existential Kink really shines when it looks at relationships—romantic, friendships, even family. Carolyn Elliott says relationships are these incredible mirrors, reflecting our unconscious. They bring out our hidden desires, our old wounds, and yeah, those shadowy “kinks” that trap us in certain behaviors. Rachel: So, relationships are basically funhouse mirrors, showing us parts of ourselves that we might not even realize are there, or maybe we just don't want to realize. I'm already intrigued about unpacking all of this. Autumn: Exactly! Let’s break it down into two parts: the mirroring effect itself – how the things we see in others often reflect our own stuff – and how to deal with those repeating patterns. We’re going to see how EK can turn conflict and dysfunction into opportunities to heal and grow. Rachel: Alright, let's dive into this "mirror, mirror" concept. When you say relationships reflect back at us, what exactly do you mean? Because I'm guessing it's more complicated than just "I hate that person because they remind me of myself." Autumn: It's not always that straightforward, but it can be surprisingly close! Elliott builds on the Jungian idea of projection. What we really admire or hate in other people are actually traits that we haven’t fully dealt with in ourselves. Basically, if you're having a strong reaction to someone, good or bad, it’s probably mirroring something in your own inner world, especially your shadow side. Rachel: Okay, so if someone really bugs me, like, say, a coworker who can never make a decision, does that just mean I secretly hate my own indecisiveness? Autumn: That's a great example, actually, and it’s not too far off from a story in the book about Lily and Daniel. They were stuck in this cycle. Lily kept accusing Daniel of being indecisive, and he’d snap back that she was being way too controlling. On the surface, just seemed like a typical clash, right? But EK challenged them to think about why this kept happening. Rachel: Let me guess, they weren’t actually opposites, but more like reflections of each other? Autumn: Exactly. Lily realized that Daniel’s indecision was triggering her own deep fear about making wrong choices. By criticizing him, she was avoiding her own anxiety. And Daniel, calling Lily “controlling” was a defense. He actually wanted the structure she provided, but he'd learned a long time ago to squash any part of himself that might want to lead or decide. Rachel: Wow, so their fights weren't really about the actual decisions. They were about their own hidden stuff playing out. Once they figured that out, what changed? Autumn: Well, when they could see those projections, they stopped blaming each other. They started seeing their conflicts as…self-awareness opportunities. Lily started working on her own anxieties about decisions, instead of just dumping them on Daniel. And Daniel started to explore how to connect with his need for structure, instead of pushing it away by criticizing Lily. That dynamic didn’t vanish overnight, but they started working together instead of against each other. Rachel: I like that idea of using conflict as a mirror. But what if a relationship just feels totally incompatible? Like, one person just embodies something the other can’t stand. Autumn: That’s where EK shifts the focus. Compatibility isn’t always the real issue. Instead, the book asks, “What does your reaction tell you?” Say someone annoys you because they're super overconfident. Maybe that means you need to embrace your own confidence, instead of hiding from it. It's not about forcing compatibility, it's about using that reflection to learn more about yourself. Rachel: So, less about fixing the other person, and more about asking why this situation is pushing your buttons so hard. Autumn: Exactly. EK is all about personal accountability—taking responsibility for how you see others and the patterns you fall into. Elliott has some exercises to help with this. Things like journaling, where you list qualities in others that make you react strongly. Then, you look at how those qualities might be showing up in you, even just a little bit. Rachel: I can already think of a few qualities to start with. Ugh, the guy who mansplains in every meeting? Or the friend who never texts back? Seriously, though, this sounds like it could defuse a lot of conflicts. Switching from blame to curiosity…that could really change things. Autumn: Totally. And it's even more transformative when both people in a relationship start doing this kind of shadow work together. When you realize the patterns aren’t just "out there," you stop seeing your partner as the problem. You start seeing the relationship itself as a space for growth. Rachel: Okay, so that leads us to the second piece – dealing with those repeating patterns. Because, let's be honest, some people aren't just mirrors. They get stuck in the same mess, no matter who they're with. Gwen’s story comes to mind. What was going on with her? Autumn: Gwen’s story is a great example of relational cycles. She kept ending up in relationships where she felt super dependent, micromanaging her partners because she was afraid they’d leave. Naturally, that made them feel suffocated, which then triggered her abandonment fears even more! Vicious cycle. Rachel: So, how does EK help someone caught in that loop? Because dependence and abandonment are intense dynamics to just…you know… “savor.” Autumn: You're right. It’s heavy stuff. But Gwen wasn’t told to just "like" her dependent feelings. Instead, she was guided to really sit with them. To explore those feelings during meditation. She focused on the sensations of her abandonment fears—breathlessness, tension, panic—and realized there was an intense energy underneath it all that she'd never really acknowledged. Rachel: When you say “intense energy,” are we talking emotional intensity, physical sensation, both? Autumn: Both. Gwen realized she was, in a way, reliving the emotional highs and lows from her childhood. Getting attention meant putting on this big show, right? And there was this almost automatic thrill to recreating that dynamic—an unconscious need to feel that same emotional “rush,” even if it came with pain. Rachel: Wow, that's incredible, how her shadow was basically reenacting this deep-seated emotional drama. What changed for her once she realized that? Autumn: Realizing the hidden craving behind her patterns was a game-changer. Instead of beating herself up for being "toxic," Gwen started seeing those tendencies as experiences with lessons and even creative energy to offer. She started channeling that need for connection and intensity into other areas—building her community, working on art projects—and that helped her find relationships that felt more balanced and healthy. Rachel: And her old behaviors just…stopped, I'm guessing, because she wasn't unconsciously feeding that cycle anymore? Autumn: Exactly. She didn’t need the old pattern anymore because she was meeting that emotional need in healthier ways. That’s what’s so great about EK. It invites us to embrace all parts of our shadow without letting it control us, which opens up room for real growth.

Autumn: Wow, what a journey we've had today! We've “really” unraveled the concept of shadow integration through Existential Kink. We looked at how our unconscious desires shape our struggles, and how we can use meditation and, you know, journaling to actually engage with those hidden drives. We also touched on how relationships become mirrors for our inner world. At its core, EK isn't about, like, blaming ourselves for our pain but liberating ourselves by embracing the full spectrum of our experience, even the messy, uncomfortable bits. Rachel: Right, and while the idea of "savoring discomfort" might sound, I don't know, a little bit masochistic at first. I think we’ve seen how surprisingly powerful it can be. By leaning into the sensations and patterns that we'd usually rather avoid, we can gain some real clarity and a sense of control. It's not about, glorifying suffering, exactly, but more about breaking free from these cycles that unconsciously bind us. Plus, we've learned how these tools apply to our relationships, showing us that the conflicts we face often reveal keys to our own healing, right? Autumn: Exactly. I think the big takeaway here is that transformation starts with curiosity. Whether it's unpacking a recurring problem, sitting with uncomfortable emotions, or reflecting on your relationships, Existential Kink “really” encourages us to meet our shadows with compassion, humor, and a sense of play and curiosity. So, you know, as you move forward, ask yourself: What patterns are trying to tell me something? And can I approach them with openness rather than resistance? Rachel: Yeah, because the parts of us we try to shut out, they don't just vanish, do they? They kind of linger, waiting to be acknowledged. And as unsettling as shadow work can be, well, it's also pretty liberating, I think. So, maybe the real question for all of us is, what if we stopped fighting our shadows and started dancing with them? Autumn: Beautifully said, Rachel. And that's where we'll leave it today. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into the shadowy and transformative world of Existential Kink. Until next time, remember that every discomfort holds potential, and that the path to liberation might just begin with a little curiosity.