Autumn: Hey everyone, welcome back! Today we're tackling something super common: anxiety. Ever been at work, and suddenly your brain fixates on something small – like, "Oh no, did I screw up that email?" – and then it just spirals out of control? That’s your "monkey mind" running wild, creating chaos at the worst possible moment. Rachel: Wait, so you're saying my constant overthinking is basically a hyperactive monkey, swinging around and making a ton of noise? That's... not exactly comforting, Autumn. Autumn: Well, the idea actually comes from Jennifer Shannon’s book, Don’t Feed the Monkey Mind. She uses this "monkey mind" metaphor to illustrate how irrational fears and panicky thoughts can “really” take over our lives. More importantly, she talks about how we can actually stop fueling these thoughts and regain some peace. It's all about using techniques from cognitive-behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy, learning to face our fears instead of constantly avoiding them. Rachel: Okay, I’m with you so far. But what does "feeding the monkey" actually mean? Am I supposed to just ignore all my thoughts and hope this metaphorical monkey just… disappears from starvation? Autumn: Not quite! "Feeding the monkey" refers to the behaviors that give power to our anxiety. Think about things like avoiding situations that stress you out, or constantly seeking reassurance from others. Now, Shannon points out that these "safety strategies" might feel good in the short term. But in the long run, they only make the monkey louder and stronger. The real goal is to shift away from avoidance and towards action. We can adopt what she calls an "expansive mindset" by staying connected to our values and goals, even when anxiety is trying to pull us away. Rachel: Ah, so instead of trying to shut the monkey up completely, I need to train it to chill out when life throws a small curveball. I get it. What's our plan of attack for today's episode? Autumn: Right! First, we'll dive deep into the "monkey mind" itself. I am going to provide a clearer picture of how it operates and why it seems to love being in control. Then, we'll expose the three underlying assumptions that tend to fuel it: intolerance of uncertainty, perfectionism, and feeling overly responsible. And finally, we’ll equip you with some practical tools from Shannon’s book to help you tame the monkey, manage your anxiety, and move toward a more meaningful and fulfilling life. Rachel: Alright, sounds like I'm about to have a serious talk with my inner monkey, one irrational thought at a time. Challenge accepted! Let's jump in!

Autumn: Right, so, when we talk about the "monkey mind," we're diving into that constant inner chatter, right? It's like a broken record, always jumping to the worst-case scenarios. It's not just random overthinking, it’s your brain’s anxiety taking over, and suddenly everything feels like a threat. Rachel: You mean like when I'm jolted out of sleep at 2 AM, suddenly convinced I forgot to respond to an email from two weeks ago, and then I’m spiraling for an hour, thinking I’ve ruined my entire career? Is that the monkey running the show? Autumn: Exactly! That's the monkey demanding attention. Jennifer Shannon explains it well – the monkey mind comes from a place of primal fear, interpreting almost everything as a potential, you know, danger. Back in the day, when we were dodging predators, this was a useful alarm system. But now, instead of saber-toothed tigers, the monkey fixates on stuff like social embarrassment or our overflowing to-do lists. Rachel: So, evolution gave us this super sensitive mental burglar alarm, but forgot to update the software for things like not-freaking-out-about-your-coffee-order syndrome? Fantastic. Autumn: <Laughs> Pretty much! At the heart of this is your amygdala – your brain’s built-in fear radar. It lights up when it senses danger. It’s responsible for that automatic fight-or-flight response – racing heart, sweaty palms, the whole shebang. Rachel: You’re saying my heart pounds just as hard when I forget my umbrella as it does when a car nearly takes me out in the crosswalk? Autumn: Precisely! And that's the crux of the problem. Your amygdala doesn’t really distinguish between a real, physical danger and an imagined or abstract one. It reacts the same way to standing in front of a crowd as it would to seeing a lion charging at you. That’s why that inner “monkey” seems so loud – it’s your body actively responding to something your brain has, well, mislabeled as dangerous. Rachel: Oh, mislabeling dangers is definitely my brain's favorite pastime. But when does the monkey mind decide enough is enough? Or does it ever just... stop? Autumn: Not until we stop feeding it. And that’s why those avoidance behaviors we lean on can be so destructive. Take Maria, for example. She’d feel a slight ache and instantly think, "Heart attack!" Her amygdala would go wild, convincing her she was in real danger. Rachel: Okay, so she tries to "fix" this by…googling her symptoms and falling down a WebMD rabbit hole, right? Oh wait, are we talking about me? Autumn: Well, many of us have been there! Maria’s instinct, like many of ours, was to seek reassurance – looking up symptoms, going to the doctor, avoiding anything that might "trigger" her anxiety. These things calmed her down temporarily, but long-term, they strengthened the monkey mind’s grip. Her brain learned that the only way to feel safe was by avoiding discomfort or uncertainty. Rachel: So, every time Maria skipped exercise or consulted "Dr. Google," she was basically handing the monkey a treat and saying, "Here you go, get louder!" Autumn: Exactly. And the louder it got, the harder it became for Maria to see that the underlying threat wasn’t real. Avoidance, as Shannon says, teaches the monkey that uncertainty equals danger – and that we have to either run from it or control it completely. That's how the whole, you know, cycle feeds itself. Rachel: Alright, but let's be honest – avoiding things does make you feel better, at least for a short time. You're not saying avoidance is always bad, are you? Autumn: Not always, no, but when it becomes your default response, it reinforces anxiety. It's like building a mental habit where your brain automatically reacts to uncertainty by shutting down or seeking reassurance. And over time, that habit shrinks your comfort zone. You can’t do the things you truly want, or live the life you value, because anxiety has boxed you in. Rachel: That's a bit heavy. But how does this work with different kinds of worries? Maria's health anxiety makes sense, but what about someone constantly worrying about their family, for instance? Autumn: That’s a great point. Let's talk about Samantha, another example Shannon uses. Samantha’s anxiety was focused on her son, who was dealing with substance abuse. She coped by constantly checking in – calling, texting multiple times a day – because silence made her panic. But each call was like Maria’s reassurance – temporary relief that ultimately reinforced the idea that her son's well-being depended on her hypervigilance. Rachel: So every unanswered text just added fuel to the fire, and her monkey kept screaming, "You have to fix this, or everything will fall apart!" Autumn: Right. That over-responsibility Samantha felt – thinking it was her job to control the outcome – kept her anxiety alive. But here’s the key: no amount of checking could actually eliminate the uncertainty she felt about her son's choices. Like Maria, Samantha's avoidance of discomfort just kept the cycle going. Rachel: Let me guess – breaking that cycle involves her stepping back and learning to tolerate not knowing if her son's okay every second of every day? Autumn: Bingo! It’s a slow, intentional process, but it starts with reframing discomfort. Instead of seeing those anxious feelings as signals of danger, people like Samantha and Maria learn to see them as reminders of being human – of caring deeply, even when life is uncertain. Rachel: So, instead of telling my monkey to shut up, I just… invite it to sit down and watch the show? Autumn: <Laughs> More or less! You acknowledge its noise without letting it dictate your actions. And that’s where things like building tolerance for uncertainty, or experimenting with small steps of discomfort, come into play – you starve the monkey, rather than giving it what it wants. Rachel: Makes sense. Sounds like the monkey's not moving out of my head anytime soon, but maybe I can train it to stop hogging the spotlight every time I feel a little off balance.

Autumn: Absolutely, Rachel, and that's “really” the beauty of reframing anxiety. When we start recognizing these patterns, we can see anxiety as just another manageable aspect of our mental health, not some uncontrollable monster. And that brings us to the core of the matter – what actually fuels this "monkey mind." Jennifer Shannon identifies three key assumptions that “really” drive anxiety: intolerance of uncertainty, perfectionism, and over-responsibility. Rachel: So, correct me if I’m wrong, you’re saying our monkey has a “real” weakness for three things: fearing the unknown, obsessively seeking perfection, and trying to be everyone else's savior? Sounds like we're setting up quite the anxious buffet here. Autumn: Precisely! Each of these assumptions actually strengthens the monkey's hold on us by distorting our perception of ourselves and the world around us. So, let's break down each assumption. We'll start with a definition, then look at a case study to see how it plays out in real life, and finally, discuss how people can actually challenge these distortions and break free from these cycles. Let's begin with intolerance of uncertainty. Rachel: Right, the monkey just can't stand not knowing, can it? It's like, "If I can't predict every single outcome, then the sky must be falling!" Autumn: Exactly! That basically sums up intolerance of uncertainty—the belief that ambiguity is inherently dangerous and must be eliminated for us to feel safe. It's why we scramble for answers or try to control situations when life feels uncertain. Take Maria's story, for example. She experienced normal, everyday sensations, like a little twinge in her chest, and immediately jumped to the worst possible conclusion. Rachel: Oh yeah, her monkey started screaming, "Heart attack! Code Red! Medical emergency incoming!" And Maria, of course, frantically searched for answers, trying to replace that "What if?" with a solid "Definitely not!" Autumn: Right. Maria couldn't tolerate the uncertainty of not knowing whether her symptoms were serious. She would spend hours online, diagnosing herself, call her husband constantly for reassurance every time she felt something new, and avoid activities that might "trigger" her fears. But here's the “real” problem—those coping strategies only provided temporary relief. Every time she sought reassurance, it actually reinforced the idea that uncertainty was dangerous. Rachel: So, instead of calming the monkey, she's basically training her brain to panic more by saying, "Keep worrying—I'll just Google again!" So I’m guessing, the solution involves her taking a step back from this endless chase for certainty, right? Autumn: Absolutely. Maria's breakthrough came when she committed to resisting that urge to Google or seek reassurance. Instead of trying to eliminate her fears, she practiced sitting with uncertainty, even when it was uncomfortable. And eventually, she realized that the threat wasn't escalating just because she wasn't "solving" it – she watched the monkey’s voice getting quieter as her ability to tolerate uncertainty grew. Rachel: I like the image of just starving the monkey by calmly saying, "Nope, no more endless Googling for you." What about perfectionism, though? That's like the monkey wearing a suit and tie, isn't it? Insisting everything has to be absolutely perfect or it's game over. Autumn: What a perfect description! Perfectionism fuels anxiety because it equates any kind of imperfection with failure. People fall into the trap of believing that one little misstep will lead to catastrophic consequences. Think about Eric. He was paralyzed by indecision over choosing a software vendor at work, convinced that making the wrong choice would ruin his reputation. Rachel: So, the monkey’s in his ear constantly saying, "One wrong move, and you’ll lose your job and end up homeless." Pretty convincing stuff, huh? Autumn: It is! That's what makes perfectionism so insidious. Eric's endless deliberation gave him the feeling of being productive—but in reality, he was just procrastinating. His desperate need for a "perfect" decision drained him emotionally, stalled his progress, and ultimately made him avoid taking other risks altogether. Rachel: Right, and I bet even when he finally made a choice, it still didn’t feel like enough, because that darn monkey was telling him to double-check everything. So, how did he manage to break free from that cycle? Autumn: By changing the way he looked at failure. With practice and support, Eric adopted the mantra, "Mistakes are opportunities to learn." One small but impactful exercise was giving himself firm deadlines—making decisions without knowing every single possible outcome. And because he stuck to those deadlines, he proved to himself that progress matters more than perfection. Over time, his confidence grew, and he finally realized that taking risks—even imperfect ones—wasn’t the catastrophe he had always feared. Rachel: That idea of progress over perfection “really” hits home, but when you've been listening to the monkey’s tune for years, it’s hard to break, isn't it? Autumn: It's definitely a challenge. But what Shannon emphasizes is that perfectionism is not “really” about competence – it's driven by fear. Recognizing that distinction is the first step because once you realize that your mistakes don’t define you, then you can start taking small steps – like Eric did – toward embracing imperfection. Rachel: Speaking of fear-driven habits, over-responsibility seems like another prime example. Is that the monkey saying, "If you don't step in and fix this, someone else will fail, and it'll be your fault," right? Autumn: Right! Over-responsibility centers on the belief that you’re accountable for someone else’s safety or success—even when it’s actually beyond your control. Think of Samantha, for example. She felt completely responsible for her son, who was struggling with alcoholism, to the point where she sacrificed her own finances, her health, and her peace of mind to shield him from any harm. Rachel: Let me guess, her monkey had her convinced that if she didn't constantly keep tabs on him, the world would explode. Autumn: Exactly. Samantha believed her constant vigilance was protecting her son, but all it did was reinforce her anxiety and prevent him from truly facing and owning his actions. Her turning point was when she understood that love doesn’t mean control. By setting boundaries and stepping back, Samantha was able to reconnect with herself while supporting her son in a much healthier way. Rachel: So, when she finally let go of that constant hypervigilance, she created space for both of them to grow, right? That’s a tough but incredibly powerful lesson—trusting that things will be okay, even if you’re not orchestrating every single detail. Autumn: Absolutely. Over-responsibility, like the other assumptions, comes from a good place – wanting to protect those we care about. But when you embrace imperfection, accept uncertainty, and set healthy boundaries, you find freedom not just for yourself, but for others as well. And that's the “real” way to starve the monkey.

Autumn: Understanding these assumptions really sets the stage for challenging them, for reframing them, you know? And that's where the practical tools come into play. Jennifer Shannon makes a pretty strong case for not just rethinking anxiety, but actually giving ourselves the tools to deal with it. This section really delivers on that promise, offering concrete ways to handle that monkey mind, moving from just understanding anxiety to actually doing something about it. Rachel: Ah, finally! Stuff we can actually use. What are we talking about here? Like, a DIY guide to monkey wrangling? Offering it metaphorical bananas to keep it busy? Autumn: Not quite! This section introduces three techniques, and each has a clear method and a tangible benefit, and they all really give you a powerful strategy for handling anxiety. The idea is to shift from avoiding and reacting to being more intentional and open to experience. Rachel: Okay, but I need more than just fancy names. What's the first thing on the list? Autumn: So, let's dive into Worry Time. It's all about containing and controlling those anxious thoughts. Instead of trying to push them away or letting them take over your whole day, you set aside specific time to deal with them. Twenty minutes in the evening, maybe? And then you save all your worrying for that moment. Rachel: So, if my brain decides to scream at me at 2 a.m. about whether I sent in the right form, I just tell it, "Not now, monkey! We've got a 6 p.m. appointment"? Autumn: Exactly, Rachel! Take Eric, for example, he was a classic over-thinker, you know? The kind of guy who'd lie awake all night going over every decision at work, worrying about making mistakes. And this technique totally changed his life. By scheduling "Worry Time" every evening, he gave himself permission to put those thoughts on hold during the day, knowing he'd deal with them later. Rachel: And it worked? He just, like, postponed his panic attacks, and the monkey didn't throw a fit? Autumn: Well, it was definitely a challenge at first. But over time, Eric realized that a lot of his fears felt less urgent, less dramatic, when he looked at them during his designated worry time. Some of them didn't even seem important anymore! And instead of getting stuck in endless loops of overthinking, he could think about things calmly, come up with solutions if he needed to, and then move on. Rachel: So, by training the monkey to only scream at one specific time, Eric basically made his whole day a lot quieter. I have to admit, that actually sounds... freeing. Autumn: It really is. And what's great about Worry Time is that it's so flexible. Whether you set aside ten minutes with your coffee or just before you go to bed, it helps you create boundaries between dealing with your anxiety and just living your life. It stops the monkey from taking over everything. Rachel: Okay, I'm willing to give that a shot. What's next? Autumn: Next is the Welcoming Breath, which takes, you know, a completely different approach. It focuses on the physical sensations of anxiety. Instead of trying to fight or escape those feelings in your body, like a tight chest or a racing heart, you actually embrace them. You breathe into them and let them flow through you. Rachel: Wait, so you don't just ignore the scary heartbeat or the knot in your stomach, you actually lean into it? That sounds kind of backwards. Autumn: It might seem that way, but it's actually super powerful. Take Samantha's story, for instance. She was a mom who was constantly worried about her son, who was struggling with addiction. She'd get so anxious every time her phone rang. When she learned the Welcoming Breath, she started pausing whenever she felt that tightness in her chest. Instead of reacting right away, she'd close her eyes, breathe deeply, and focus on the sensation, not try to run away from it. Rachel: Okay, and then what, her anxiety just magically disappeared after a few breaths? Autumn: Not exactly. By imagining her breath loosening the tension and letting go of her need to control everything, Samantha gradually changed how she related to her anxiety. She started telling herself, "This feeling will pass." And eventually, that's what happened. The physical discomfort didn't set off an emotional panic, and she got better at noticing her fears without getting caught up in them. Rachel: I can kind of see how that works. Instead of running away from anxiety, you're... befriending it, I guess? Letting the monkey yell in one corner while you stay calm in the other? Autumn: Exactly. The Welcoming Breath teaches you to accept your emotions, not suppress them. It reminds you that even strong feelings don't last forever and you can manage them if you let them run their course. Rachel: Alright, so we've postponed the monkey with Worry Time and learned to hug it out with breathing. What's the last tool in the toolbox? Autumn: The last one is a little more strategic, it's the Expansion Chart. It's a step-by-step plan for facing your fears and making your comfort zone bigger. It's great if you feel like anxiety is holding you back and you want a clear way to reconnect with what's important to you. Rachel: So, we're journaling about our anxiety now? What's the big deal with mapping it all out? Autumn: It's more than just journaling, it's about creating a path for growth. Think about Maria, for example. She had really bad health anxiety and was always Googling her symptoms. Her Expansion Chart started with identifying an “Opportunity,” which in her case was learning to be okay with not knowing everything about her health without immediately Googling it. Rachel: Got it, her monkey wanted to Google, but she needed to resist the compulsion. Autumn: Exactly. Maria wrote down her fears and the things she was doing to avoid them, like checking her symptoms online or going to multiple doctors. Then, she wrote down the things that were really important to her, like traveling and being spontaneous, which her anxiety was getting in the way of. From there, she made a list of steps she could take, like not Googling her symptoms for a week or doing something fun when she felt anxious. Rachel: And over time, following this chart, she learned to... what, trust that not knowing something isn't a disaster? Autumn: Exactly! Every time she pushed herself to act instead of avoid, Maria realized that uncertainty wasn't as scary as her monkey was making it out to be. Eventually, it helped her take back her life. She even booked a trip to South America, which she never would have done when her anxiety was in charge. Rachel: Okay, I'll admit, that's pretty cool. A chart to make the monkey less powerful while making new things feel possible. Autumn: And that's the whole point. By looking at your fears, changing your beliefs, and doing things that match your values, Expansion Charts make things clearer and give you a sense of purpose. Together, these three techniques, Worry Time, the Welcoming Breath, and Expansion Charts, help you see anxiety as just another part of being human, not something to be afraid of or avoid. Rachel: So, we stop reacting to the monkey and start changing how we deal with it. We let it sit there, but we don't let it decide where we go. Autumn: Exactly, Rachel. These tools don't silence the monkey, they help us work with it, so we can find peace and take control!

Autumn: Okay, Rachel, let’s bring this home. Today, we really unpacked the whole idea of the "monkey mind"—that restless, anxious chatter in our heads driven by fear, right? We took apart those three main assumptions that “really” fuel anxiety: not being able to handle uncertainty, the pressure of perfectionism, and feeling overly responsible for everything and everyone. And we saw how those keep us stuck in these worry-avoidance loops. Rachel: Right, and then we got into some practical tools—Worry Time, that Welcoming Breath technique, and Expansion Charts. So, concrete ways to actually confront that discomfort, you know, stop reinforcing the anxiety, and, ultimately, broaden our lives beyond those self-imposed limitations. Do you find all these methods easy to practice for yourself? Autumn: Definitely. And that brings us to the core message: Anxiety is part of the human experience, it's going to happen, but it doesn’t have to run the show, does it? By accepting that uncertainty exists, letting go of impossible standards, and establishing healthy boundaries, we can stop reacting on impulse to that “monkey mind”. Instead we make conscious choices that reflect who we really are. Rachel: So, next time you feel that inner monkey going wild, remember: you don't have to wrestle with it, run from it, or give it what it wants. Just acknowledge it and train it… more like teach it to be quiet and let you take charge again. I think that it is hard, especially for people in the modern urban life, what suggestion do you have? Autumn: I agree, it's a tough journey, but definitely rewarding. And that’s our wish for our listeners today. Take the first step to calm that monkey mind. Because what we really want you to know is—you already have everything you need to make that change.