Mark: Here’s a wild thought to start us off. A major five-year study looked at nearly 5,000 people and found that while 95 percent of them believe they are self-aware, only about 10 to 15 percent actually are. Michelle: Hold on. Ninety-five percent think they are, but only ten to fifteen percent are? That means the vast majority of us are walking around with a completely inaccurate view of ourselves. That’s… unsettling. Mark: It is. And that massive blind spot is exactly where today's topic lives and breathes. It’s how burnout creeps up on us, completely undetected, until it’s a full-blown crisis. This is the central idea in a fascinating book called Burnout Immunity by Kandi Wiens. Michelle: Kandi Wiens. And what makes her take on this so different? The burnout topic feels pretty saturated these days. Mark: That's the compelling part. She isn't just an academic; she's a researcher and senior fellow at the University of Pennsylvania, but she's also a survivor. The book was born from her own harrowing experience with burnout, which became a literal, life-threatening medical emergency. Michelle: Oh, wow. So she has both the data and the scars. That’s a powerful combination. It’s not just theory from an ivory tower; it’s wisdom earned in the trenches. I’m already much more interested.

Mark: Exactly. And to really grasp the immunity she talks about, we first have to understand the disease. And her story paints the most vivid picture I’ve ever read. She thought she was fine, just dealing with the normal stress of a high-powered consulting job. She goes for a routine physical exam in 2011. Michelle: Just a standard check-up. Mark: Right. The nurse takes her blood pressure, gets a strange look, and takes it again. And again. Then the nurse leaves the room without saying much, and the doctor comes in, looking very serious. He asks her, "Kandi, how are you feeling?" And she says, "I'm fine." Michelle: The classic answer, even when we're falling apart. Mark: The doctor then tells her that her blood pressure is 200 over 110. For anyone who doesn't know, that is a hypertensive emergency. You are at immediate risk of a stroke or heart attack. He immediately gives her medication, Xanax to calm her down, and orders her home for complete bed rest. Michelle: That is absolutely terrifying. From a desk job? It’s one thing to feel stressed or tired, but to be physically breaking down on that level without even knowing it… that’s a different category of problem entirely. Mark: That’s the core of her argument. We misdiagnose burnout as just being "really tired" or "stressed out." We see it as a personal failing—a lack of grit or resilience. But Wiens, backed by decades of research from others, argues that’s completely wrong. Michelle: Okay, so if it's not a personal weakness, what is it? Mark: It’s a prolonged response to chronic, situational stressors at work. The book points to the work of psychologists Christina Maslach and Michael Leiter, who identified six key areas where a mismatch between an employee and their job can create burnout. It’s things like an unsustainable workload, a lack of control over your work, insufficient rewards, a breakdown of community, a sense of unfairness, or a clash with your core values. Michelle: So it’s not that the person is broken, it’s that the fit is broken. You’re a square peg being hammered into a round hole, day after day, and eventually, you start to splinter. Mark: Precisely. And it gets worse. The book talks about the phenomenon of "emotional contagion." If you work with toxic colleagues—people who are cynical, gossipy, or just plain negative—their behavior literally spreads like a virus. Research from McKinsey that she cites found that employees experiencing high levels of toxic behavior are eight times more likely to suffer from burnout symptoms. Michelle: Eight times! That’s staggering. It’s like secondhand smoke for your soul. You can be the most positive person in the world, but if you’re breathing in toxic fumes all day, you’re going to get sick. Mark: And that’s the fundamental reframe of the book. It’s telling you to stop blaming yourself for feeling exhausted in a toxic environment. It’s like trying to stay dry in a hurricane. The problem isn't your raincoat; it's the storm. Burnout is a signal that the environment is hazardous. Michelle: I find that incredibly liberating. Because if it’s an environmental problem, it changes the question. The question is no longer "What's wrong with me?" It's "What's wrong with this situation, and how do I navigate it?" Mark: Exactly. And that pivot is the first step toward building immunity.

Michelle: Okay, so that's a pretty bleak picture. If the workplace is the storm, and most of us can't just quit our jobs and find a sunny island, what's the alternative? How do you possibly build an immunity to a hurricane? Mark: This is where the book gets really hopeful and practical. Wiens argues that burnout immunity is not a genetic trait you’re born with. It’s a learnable skill. And the foundation of that skill is Emotional Intelligence, or EI. Michelle: I’ve heard that term thrown around a lot. What does it actually mean in this context? Is it just about being nice to people? Mark: Not at all. It’s much deeper. For Wiens, it boils down to two core, practical pillars: Regulation and Connection. Regulation is about managing your internal world—your emotions, thoughts, and behaviors. Connection is about fueling your external world—your relationships with your work, with people, and with your values. Michelle: Regulation and Connection. Okay, that sounds good in theory. But what does "regulation" actually look like on a stressful Tuesday afternoon when your inbox is exploding and your boss is upset? Mark: The book has a perfect story for this. It’s about an executive named Colin. His team had just gone through a brutal year-end crunch. His manager had quit suddenly, the workload was insane, and the team culture had turned toxic. Meetings were just angry venting sessions. Colin was completely overwhelmed. Michelle: Sounds like a nightmare. I think a lot of people can relate to that feeling of being caught in a downward spiral at work. Mark: He felt helpless. His first instinct was to try and "fix" everyone, to change the entire culture overnight. But in coaching, he realized that was outside of his control. So he shifted his focus entirely to what he could control: his own actions. It was a tiny, almost laughably simple shift. Michelle: What did he do? Mark: Instead of starting meetings with a stressed-out "let's get down to business" attitude, he began by asking a simple reflection question, like, "What did you learn this week that you're excited about?" or "What's working for us as a team?" He also started a daily practice of looking for three positive things his team members did and sending them a quick email with the subject line: "Here's what I caught today." Michelle: Wow. That’s it? He didn’t have some big confrontation or roll out a new corporate policy. He just changed the way he started a meeting and sent a few nice emails. Mark: That was it. And it completely changed the dynamic. It lowered his own stress because he was focusing on the positive, and it started to heal the team. He wasn't trying to control their anger or frustration. He was regulating his own focus and behavior, which in turn regulated the emotional temperature of the room. That’s regulation in action. Michelle: I love that. It’s not some abstract 'be more mindful' advice. It's a concrete action. He found his little island of control in the middle of the hurricane and started building from there. That’s so practical. Mark: And that’s the internal shield. The second pillar, Connection, is the power source. It’s what recharges you. The book tells the incredible story of Robert Luna, the Sheriff of Los Angeles County. He’s been in law enforcement for nearly forty years, one of the most stressful careers imaginable. Michelle: I can’t even imagine the pressure, especially in recent years. Mark: During the height of the 2020 protests, he was facing constant media attacks, protests at his own home, and political support was evaporating. The stress was immense. Many in his position would burn out, become cynical, or quit. Michelle: So how did he handle it? Mark: He said he resisted the temptation to give up by constantly reminding himself why he took the job in the first place. His purpose. He said, "This is much higher than myself. It’s my job as a police chief to guide my people and my community through it." He anchored himself to that noble cause. And he leaned heavily on his connections—his family, his faith, his closest friends. He didn't try to shoulder it alone. Michelle: So his connection to a purpose larger than himself, and his connection to people who supported him, created a buffer against the stress. Mark: A powerful one. It transformed the stress from a purely destructive force into something meaningful. He was enduring it for a reason. That’s the power of connection. Michelle: That makes so much sense. So it’s a two-pronged defense. Regulation is your internal shield, managing your immediate reactions and focus. And Connection is your external power source, recharging you with purpose and supportive relationships. Together, they form your immunity.

Mark: Exactly. And when you put it all together, the book offers a really profound shift in how we should think about our careers and our well-being. Burnout isn't a mark of shame; it's a signal. It’s a very loud, very clear alarm bell telling you that there is a fundamental mismatch between who you are and what your work is demanding of you. Michelle: A signal, not a failure. That’s a powerful distinction. It moves it from the category of "personal problem to hide" to "important data to analyze." Mark: And the solution isn't just to "be tougher" or "push through it," which is the message so much of hustle culture sends. The solution is to become wiser. To develop the emotional intelligence to manage your internal world through regulation, and to find the strength and resilience to navigate the external world by connecting to your purpose, your people, and your values. Michelle: It’s about building a life that’s structurally sound, not just trying to patch up the cracks as they appear. It’s proactive, not reactive. Mark: That's the essence of immunity. You don't wait for the disease to strike. You build the systems that keep you healthy from the start. The book has been widely praised for this blend of deep research and incredibly human stories, and it’s because it gives people a sense of agency back. Michelle: It really makes you think. It leaves me with a question for everyone listening, and for myself, really. What's one small thing you can do this week to reclaim a tiny piece of control? Maybe it's ending your workday on time, just once. Or what's one value you feel disconnected from that you could reconnect with, even in a small way? Mark: That's the perfect place to start. We’d love to hear what our listeners think. What are the small ways you build your own burnout immunity? Let us know on our social channels. Your stories are part of this conversation. Michelle: It’s a conversation we all need to be having. This was fantastic, Mark. A really important one. Mark: It really is. Thanks, Michelle.